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  1. #1
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    overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    I think its time I drag up this topic again even if nobody seems to care about it.

    This is only a factor when the first team doesnt manage to set a time and have the biggest impact on C4 maps.

    In short if you attack first and the last objective you do is a C4 objective you have 15m50s on you to complete it and when the last objective is a delivery objective the first half is 15m04s.

    If you attack second when the first team didnt set a time you have 15m on you to complete it. (yes, you can have a little more if you defuse in overtime but then you afaik only get the time up to the point of the defuse and not the full time needed for it to blow up.)

    Not saying it needs fixing before season 2 and possibly delay it more with new bugs but at least acknowledge its a problem that needs fixing.
    nerf teh snippers already...

  2. #2

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    I've heard people say this before, but couldn't work out what they were on about.

    I'm genuinely interested though, any chance you could explain it explicitly, perhaps with a detailed example or timeline?


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  3. #3
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    hmm I can try to but if its not good enough I will have to think about it.

    When you attack first on undergound, you just have to plant the bomb before the 15minute marker. This gives you the bomb timer in addition round timer to blow it up. (15minutes + 50seconds)

    When you attack second the "overtime" doesnt exist so you have to plant at 14m10s to have time to blow it up before the round is over 15m00s.


    A sloppy example would be:

    IF that you keep the other team from finishing the second objective on underground but they blow up the first objective faster than you.

    You would win if you got the plant down on the final objective at 14m30s and you are able to defend it.
    But if you instead attacked in the second half instead you would lose the very same game.

    It basicly gives you 2-2 more spawnwaves to succeed in on C4 objectives, aka ~5% more time.


    If you attack first or second should never be a deciding factor in the outcome of a game (more than the possible pressure it may cause).
    Last edited by ostmustis; 1st Feb 2017 at 01:16.
    nerf teh snippers already...

  4. #4

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Okay pretty sure I've got it now, thanks; so to summarise, first attackers get overtime, second attackers don't.

    Of course one option is to remove overtime for the first attackers, so no-one gets it. I'd presume that this is not really an option because it defeats the purpose of why overtime was added in the first place, which was to avoid everyone sitting around for 50 seconds at the end of every round (well the first round at least) so it would feel more climactic.

    So the first obvious idea is to just give second attackers overtime as well, however this doesn't really work in practice as there would be a weird window between the time first attackers planted and first attackers C4 goes off where second attackers could physically plant, but they'd still lose.

    You could do some sort of pseudo-overtime, where second attackers don't actually get any overtime, but (assuming first attackers planted at 15:00) they'd instead get 15:50 on their clock instead of 15:00. This seems kind of clunky and potentially gives a psychological advantage to one team as first attackers would know they had until 0:00 to plant, whereas second attackers would only have until the countdown showed 0:50. Also you'd have the waiting around problem again, although you could special case second rounds to kill the game early.

    However I'm thinking the best thing to do would be to give both teams overtime, but instead of the available time to second attackers being displayed at the time first attackers C4 exploded, it is instead the time that first attackers planted. This would give both teams until 0:00 on the clock to plant, keep the climax, avoid the waiting around, and solve the 2-2 spawn wave advantage.

    @ostmustis I'd be interested to know if you have another possible/preferred solution.


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  5. #5
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
    So the first obvious idea is to just give second attackers overtime as well, however this doesn't really work in practice as there would be a weird window between the time first attackers planted and first attackers C4 goes off where second attackers could physically plant, but they'd still lose.
    You cant go into overtime if the first team sets a time, you just lose. ;)

    Removing overtime would be the simplest way to "fix" it but I guess thats out of the picture. Maybe overtime in the second half if the first team didnt finish the map is the most fair and looks less strange. Would look wierd if you had 14.10 on the clock when underground starts but 14.56 on Trainywad (and then if they dont get to the last objective but plant a C4 on the second the clock could still go to 15.46).

    We would also need to figure out and decide the best way to treat the EV escort since its different from the other objectives.
    Last edited by ostmustis; 1st Feb 2017 at 03:21.
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  6. #6
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Best solution to me seems:
    1. If the first attacking team didn't finish the map, 2nd attacking team gets overtime if they plant just before map end.
    2. If the first attacking team sets a time, 2nd attacking team round timer hits 0 at the time attacking team 1 planted, and they get overtime too.

    That way everyone always gets overtime if they plant before the timer hits 0, and it's fair.

    Edit: tbh I don't even know how overtime works for EV objectives? Overtime runs as long as the EV moves?
    Since the final location of the EV is a victory condition anyway, I don't see why the EV needs overtime at all.
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  7. #7

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by light_sh4v0r View Post
    Best solution to me seems:
    1. If the first attacking team didn't finish the map, 2nd attacking team gets overtime if they plant just before map end.
    2. If the first attacking team sets a time, 2nd attacking team round timer hits 0 at the time attacking team 1 planted, and they get overtime too.

    That way everyone always gets overtime if they plant before the timer hits 0, and it's fair.
    Yea, that's the same thing I suggested, just said in a different way.

    Quote Originally Posted by light_sh4v0r View Post
    Edit: tbh I don't even know how overtime works for EV objectives? Overtime runs as long as the EV moves?
    Since the final location of the EV is a victory condition anyway, I don't see why the EV needs overtime at all.
    Just do it the same as the C4 idea above in my opinion, take the time from when the EV last started to move.
    Although there aren't any maps with EV last objectives yet, so it's less of an issue as the design is such that the majority of games go to final objective, and those that don't it's a stomp so there is an obvious winner anyway.


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  8. #8
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    bumpbump!!
    nerf teh snippers already...

  9.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #9
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Any Overtime 'accrued' in the first round is already added to Round 2 in Stopwatch.

    That is, if the attackers plant on 15:00 and the C4 detonates on 15:50, the second team then gets 15:50 to complete the map.

    They'd still need to plant on 15:00 or before for the C4 to detonate in time, the same as the first team.
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  10. #10
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth View Post
    Any Overtime 'accrued' in the first round is already added to Round 2 in Stopwatch.

    That is, if the attackers plant on 15:00 and the C4 detonates on 15:50, the second team then gets 15:50 to complete the map.

    They'd still need to plant on 15:00 or before for the C4 to detonate in time, the same as the first team.
    its like you didnt read the post at all!
    Last edited by ostmustis; 16th Mar 2017 at 14:38.
    nerf teh snippers already...

  11. #11

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth View Post
    Any Overtime 'accrued' in the first round is already added to Round 2 in Stopwatch.

    That is, if the attackers plant on 15:00 and the C4 detonates on 15:50, the second team then gets 15:50 to complete the map.

    They'd still need to plant on 15:00 or before for the C4 to detonate in time, the same as the first team.
    the scenario is based on the attacking team not securing a plant. The point is, attacker 1 always have the overtime safety net right up to 15:00, so they have a full 15 minutes to plant and def need to defend for a full 15 mins. If they fail, attacker 2 only gets 14:10 to plant and def only need to defend for 14:10 to secure the draw.

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  12.   Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread.   #12
    Game Designer Smooth's Avatar
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Yes but the point is that if the first attackers activate that safety net, the extra time gained gets applied to the second team as well. If the first attackers don't activate the safety net, the second team doesn't get it either.

    This argument in this thread is centred around a potential benefit that the first attackers don't actually make use of. At that level of discussion, we'd also need to factor in the psychological benefit of attacking second and knowing exactly what's needed to win.

    There is an issue of the redundant (not unfair) 50s at the end of the second round that we could put in special-case work for (ie. having the clock end 50s earlier but have there be Overtime on C4 objectives) however right now this is a lot of complex work for an edge case situation that's not the end of the world anyway.

    We could also have Overtime enabled in the second round (only if the first round ended on that objective) however I see this as more of a tool for making Draws slightly less likely, than 'fixing unfairness'.
    Last edited by Smooth; 16th Mar 2017 at 16:25.
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  13. #13
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    They always have the time even if they dont use it. Its not a _potential_ extra time, its always there and the map just end earlier if they cant use it.

    SW is about making an asymertic gameplay symmetric and then you ruin it by adding an asymetirc safty net.
    nerf teh snippers already...

  14. #14

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by ostmustis View Post
    They always have the time even if they dont use it. Its not a _potential_ extra time, its always there and the map just end earlier if they cant use it.

    SW is about making an asymertic gameplay symmetric and then you ruin it by adding an asymetirc safty net.
    time you dont use is time you dont have. Time you 'could have had' is impossible to prove ; )

    Like Smooth said, SW is already assymetric in the sense of knowing how much time you have. If the first-round attackers complete most of the map tremendously quickly, setting a quick time, the second-round attackers cannot employ tactics that would depend on attrition and 'slowly-but-surely' strategies.
    Similarly, if you know how much time you have to hold out for as defense, especially on EV maps, you can employ fire-support spam strategy that will slow down the EV stage whilst maybe not being optimal in terms of potential benefits (locking down attackers on a specific part of EV stage with high hp assaults, etc.)

  15. #15
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by Szakalot View Post
    time you dont use is time you dont have. Time you 'could have had' is impossible to prove ; )

    Like Smooth said, SW is already assymetric in the sense of knowing how much time you have. If the first-round attackers complete most of the map tremendously quickly, setting a quick time, the second-round attackers cannot employ tactics that would depend on attrition and 'slowly-but-surely' strategies.
    Similarly, if you know how much time you have to hold out for as defense, especially on EV maps, you can employ fire-support spam strategy that will slow down the EV stage whilst maybe not being optimal in terms of potential benefits (locking down attackers on a specific part of EV stage with high hp assaults, etc.)
    You always have 15:50 to blow something up, if you cant make it in time the round ends earlier.
    nerf teh snippers already...

  16. #16

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    and your point is?

  17. #17

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by ostmustis View Post
    They always have the time even if they dont use it. Its not a _potential_ extra time, its always there and the map just end earlier if they cant use it.

    SW is about making an asymertic gameplay symmetric and then you ruin it by adding an asymetirc safty net.
    Do you even read what is being said? Say you planted at 14:30 as the first attacker team, then 20 seconds would be added to the clock...but the thing is the second team needs to plant before 14:30 or it's a draw/loss. The added time is nothing but a visual representation of this on the second half.

  18. #18

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Quote Originally Posted by -bacon- View Post
    Do you even read what is being said? Say you planted at 14:30 as the first attacker team, then 20 seconds would be added to the clock...but the thing is the second team needs to plant before 14:30 or it's a draw/loss. The added time is nothing but a visual representation of this on the second half.
    The scenario is for when attacker 1 fail to plant

    Attacker 1 have 15mins to plant no matter what, they have a full 15 minutes to get that C4 down every single time and in every single scenario, this means defenders 1 have to defend until the bitter end, for the full 15 mins because attacker 1 ALWAYS have overtime as a safety net to save them even if they plant on 14:59. If they fail to plant then attacker 2 only get 14min 10secs to get a plant down and defender 2 only need to defend for that long to secure a draw. 50 seconds is a long time, that's about two spawn waves. I don't see why attacker 2 can't also get the full 15 min + overtime safety net if attacker 1 never trigger theirs, seems fair to let them try and achieve the win on the same level terms instead of a 50 sec handicap that helps the first team grab a draw.

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  19. #19

    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Perhaps a simpler way of thinking about it:

    Attackers 1 plant at 14:30 + Attackers 2 fail to plant = Attackers 1 WIN
    Attackers 1 fail to plant + Attackers 2 plant at 14:30 = DRAW

    So basically it's easier to secure a win if you attack first.


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  20.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #20
    Game Designer Smooth's Avatar
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    Re: overtime is favouring the team that attacks first

    Attackers 1 plant at 14:30 + Attackers 2 fail to plant (in 14:30 including the extra 20s they get) = Attackers 1 WIN
    Attackers 1 fail to plant + Attackers 2 plant at 14:30 = DRAW

    In the first scenario, the benefit that Attackers 1 gain is given to Attackers 2.

    Failing with more available time, is a bigger failure that failing with less available time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth View Post
    We could also have Overtime enabled in the second round (only if the first round ended on that objective) however I see this as more of a tool for making Draws slightly less likely, than 'fixing unfairness'.
    This would prevent the Draw in your second example, however a change like this isn't simple given all the different objectives types and communicating these exceptions. So I wouldn't expect to see it any time soon while we are working on other features.
    Last edited by Smooth; 18th Mar 2017 at 20:17.
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