Direction, where are we going?


(Rémy Cabresin) #1

So needless to say, competitive in DB is lacking much needed features. We’ve heard SD say that they have plans for “Seasons” etc but we haven’t had a clear statement of where we are going when it comes to basic rules and functionality. So I have a few questions that I hope gives the community something to work towards.

What is DB’s rules/format going to be?
So let’s talk competitive play from the beginning. Matchmaking is in all games intended as a “gateway drug” to tournament play. However DB currently has no competitive feel in it’s “Ranked” MM. It is literally 5v5 SW with public rules, the only time there are rules being used in MM is when both teams know the unwritten rule of the 1 merc rule used in 3rd party tournaments. Having said that MM is really not even competitive play at the moment and personally considering it a joke atm we can move on to the real problem, what are SD’s plans for competitive DB? Looking from DBNations perspective, outside of them lacking the tools to properly enforced their 1 merc ruleset, even if they had those the 1 merc rule is going to break itself soon enough. We already see teams using setups with 3 “heavies” and 2 medics on first stage Terminal, Rhino+Fragger+Nader and 2 medics. Is that really where we want comp DB to go? And what about future merc releases like Thunder/Javelin/other heavies. Or what about EV style maps with 3 Skyhammer level Fire Support mercs and 2 medics? All that said, as a competitive community we can make up all the rules we want. But we need SD to give us a clear statement on what they plan to do so we can work towards it. Are we getting drafting? 3rd party tournaments can start testing moba style draft modes. Are we getting ET-style class based restrictions, okay let’s start using those. Are we sticking with the 1 merc rule, why do we still not have such basic functionality in the Ranked mode? Short version: Does SD even have a plan already, and if so what are they? Give your community the option to experiment even if we don’t have the in-game tools yet. Right now I, and I know many others who feel the same way, feel like competitive DB is just stuck in a place where it really doesn’t matter anymore what we do unless we have SD give us something to work towards.

In-game options?
So let’s say we get to hear what SD is going to do, why have we had so many talks about things but we still don’t get basic options to test things? The long running spawnwave system has been discussed for months now, why can’t we have 2 or 3 servers with a different spawnwave system and test it in practice. As a community we can have all the ideas in the world but we can’t prove to SD that they might work because we lack the options to show it. We are so restricted in having to deal with the little DB offers us that tournaments played in your BETA phase can’t be a testing ground for the games competitive play. Without including the earlier tourneys, DirtyCups started its tournaments very early and we quickly realized public rules don’t work in 5v5 as we saw metas where we had 3 Fraggers + 2 Sawbonez or 3 Skyhammers and 2 Sawbonez for EV maps. Is that not a massive alarm going off at SD that releasing MM that allows that exact problem is probably not a good idea? And this doesn’t even apply only to 5v5, everytime we see Nader in the free week there are atleast 50 posts of people suddenly going “NADER IS OP”, not because she is but because there are more of her in play than proper balance can handle. I’m not a set admin for DBN, but I’ve been asked for my opinion many times as I have a lot of experience with running tourneys in ET, and I give my opinion but there is so much frustration internally there because they want to do a lot of things but have tied hands because the in-game functionality doesn’t allow them to do anything. We’re very thankful that we have private servers, but the reality is that we simply can’t do much with them outside of ‘on good faith rulesets’ and dealing with whatever is thrown into a patch. Let alone all the bugs we have to deal with in almost every game… Just give us full control over 2 to 4 servers where we have absolutely full control so we can experiment as a competitive community. Imagine showmatches with drafting or with different respawn systems and what value that can also have for your internal decisions.

Execution(-ing) Stopwatch?
Let me first say that I agree with the statement that Execution is easier to get into as most new players will already understand the gamemode and it’s less overwhelming so I fully support the new quickjoin level thingies. But was it really a good idea to implement this without some other things? Right now any new player comes into the game has to still find out himself that he can go to another gamemode, better yet the main gamemode is “hidden” to them. Unless SD has decided that Execution will be the main focus for Dirty Bomb, but can we then at least hear that statement directly so that players who aren’t interested in EXE can move on. Assuming DB’s main gamemode, or atleast the competitive gamemode will be SW, where are the quicktips like when you reach level 5 you get forced into the main menu and a big popup appears saying that you can now enter “the big boy gamemode Stopwatch and leave the scrubs behind”? Where is the big popup at level 7 that says “Think you can handle the real deal in Ranked? Test yourself now in MM”? Slap a nice elite case with that popup as a reward for reaching that new gamemode. Harsh truth, but the playerbase isn’t big so you need the new players but all the new players who join get into a game that doesn’t help them along at all. Even the tutorial is about the most basic FPS elements instead of merc specific tips or a short video that explains Stopwatch mode basics like spawnwaves. You have a pretty dedicated fanbase, why not ask them to make those videos if you really lack the man-power to do these things? You’ve said how much you like videos from people like LCTR or PixelTwitch :P. We all know that DB is a slap in the face game for a lot of ‘new generation FPS players’, you pride yourself on being a tough to play game but you seem to refuse to help them along atleast a little :frowning: On top of that, once people actually stick around there is nothing there for them outside of getting a better MM rank and getting better gear(grinding mercs/cards etc). Where is the clan functionality you so bravely claimed would be a part of DB since you all have backgrounds there? Or is all the clan functionality we are getting going to be “SetClanTag and RemoveClanTag”?

Now I’m well aware that whenever these types of questions come up the main response is either “soonTM”, “remember it’s beta”, “things take time, we don’t have a huge dev team” or “its hard to prioritize things”. Which to a degree I can totally understand, but what kind of time/prioritizing are we talking about here? Some of these core issues were there when the game went closed beta on steam and are still not addressed. I feel like a dick thing to say, but I can completely get behind new players who are simply disappointed with the experience, especially when it comes to competitive play. Stop doing fancy things like Execution and Containment war cards when basic functionality is simply missing. You said yourself that one of the big reasons Brink failed was because you were trying to do to many things at once, so stop doing many things and focus on the core of the game and the needed functionality to support that core!

/walloftextrant :confused:

ps: i know there are many more problems, but the longer core problems continue to seemingly be ignored, the more im starting to feel that we’re getting short term bandaids for nuisances instead of proper development. I really like the SD guys, whenever I talk to any they always seem great guys. But that keeps giving me hope and in my head I’m going “THEY CAN DO IT, CMON SD KICK SOME ASS” only to be disappointed by a content patch that masks the real issues at the core.


(prophett) #2

SD needs to stop what they’re doing and bump making an sdk with full steam workshop integration a top priority.

Unlock the potential of your community. Give us the tools we need to make maps/models/skins for you…


(Rémy Cabresin) #3

[QUOTE=prophett;541199]SD needs to stop what they’re doing and bump making an sdk with full steam workshop integration a top priority.

Unlock the potential of your community. Give us the tools we need to make maps/models/skins for you…[/QUOTE]

Useless right now, even if they put everyone on an SDK right now(it would probably still take quite a while) every patch they release they’d have to also redo the SDK again. And that also means that anyone who makes content for the game likely has to redo their things, which might be better than having nothing at all from a community perspective but its a nightmare for SD. It’s for the same reasons demos still don’t work, UE3 is just a bitch when it comes to updates.

What I hope SD is starting to realize is that some core functionality is simply missing when it comes to playing the game competitively, not badly at tournament level but even their own comp MM missing many needed functionality. Think most people will agree that outside of bugs and maybe some balance issues public is actually in a really good place right now, just competitive play feels like it’s ended up low on the priority list. Which is fine but now that public is in/near a decent place I hope they crank up development on competitive features/functionality.


(GodsMistake) #4

Friendly fire should be on for anything using the word competitive in it. I would recommend it for pubs too to reduce spam, but that is a completely different post.


(onYn) #5

Can you think about a relevant competitive game made by a developer alone? I can´t. And I think that this won´t change until there is an obvious formula for the creation of an competitive game. Right now it´s basically a process of modding or changing an allready well made game to unleash it´s competitive potential. This implies that an insane ammount of gameknowledge and understanding is required to do so - something developers, while quiet smart, won´t have. Yes they work on the game, but they do so in groups and specializie on different aspects of the game. Because of that, I think they won´t grasp a game and it´s various mechanics and there interactions like a person who spend thousands of hours playing it. (with a mindset of exploring possibilities and improving).

I think that the only other way to develop and polish a “competitive” game is to make it appealing enough for a huge ammount of people to create a supporting community. Then, if the community and the devs want to, they can work out by trial and error how to make the game better and/or more competitive step by step.

Since the game isn´t really a hit so far, I don´t expect SD to do a lot in the competitive direction. Even if they wanted to, they most likely can´t and if you want to play it competitively you need to be patient and hope that they as well as the community is willing to keep working on the game for years and then maybe youll end up with something fleshed out. Until then, I wouldn´t expect anything and focus on enjoying the game how it is or move on an check the status of DB every couple of months :wink:


(montheponies) #6

It looks to me like Execution is being seen as the mode for getting the masses involved, with Obj and SW being niche. Even the Execution maps ‘look’ better (I could be completely wrong here, but they seem to be HD sharp v the normal maps ‘fuzzy’ graphics…don’t know if that’s related to map size, ie no fog or me just making things up).

The lack of configurable servers for either competition or community based public servers (ie. fixed rotation, non-lobby types) is going to lead to an erosion of the player base. Not as if you can build up a community of like minded players on random EU Server #5 everynight…

Other than that - the maps are still sub-par…


(spookify) #7

Its all maps and objectives within those maps. It always boils down to that.


(ZGToRRent) #8

I would like to see everything they said here but the question is: when they will make it?

First thing on the movie: “Clans are very important”, hmm if giving as “SetClanTag” command is everything they made since 2 years then the competitive future will not exist. I understand that they want more casuals to the game but forcing the whole dev process to one direction will be a big failure.


(Rémy Cabresin) #9

Maps have nothing to do with the problems I’m adressing though. Maps are a luxury, it’s not the true core functionality. We can have the best maps in the world but having 3 Fraggers and 2 medics on it will still break the gameplay. You can build a perfect map but if noone plays MM then the map doesn’t get played there either. It’s true that map design has it’s issues in DB but I consider them very low priority. They fall in the same category as Execution and CW cards, they are content that mask the real problems. Saying everything boils down to maps/objectives is honestly just ignorant.


(watsyurdeal) #10

Imo three major things need to happen

  1. A better tutorial, seriously, we need Support, Medic, Engineer, Assault, and Recon all properly covered.

  2. 3 mercs need to be added as default, along with Skyhammer and Aura, personally I think Nader, Proxy, and Vasilli would be fine for this.

  3. A major revamp to competitive and an incentive to play it, like it’s own currency you can use to buy cases with, that can only be bought with said currency.


(Mustang) #11

Why?!?

I see no plausible reason for this, actually I’d even argue that Skyhammer and Aura are not needed, you already have 3 mercs on rotation and after an hour of play have enough credits to unlock another couple of your own choice, I don’t get why you’d rather force all new players to have the same 3 mercs rather than let them pick their own or try out some for free on rotation.


(Rémy Cabresin) #12

[QUOTE=Mustang;541107]Why?!?

I see no plausible reason for this, actually I’d even argue that Skyhammer and Aura are not needed, you already have 3 mercs on rotation and after an hour of play have enough credits to unlock another couple of your own choice, I don’t get why you’d rather force all new players to have the same 3 mercs rather than let them pick their own or try out some for free on rotation.[/QUOTE]

I’d like to see them remove Aura and Sky as the ‘always free’ and just make the free rotation 4 or 5 mercs so it covers all roles?


(watsyurdeal) #13

It’s called consistency guys, new players need base mercs to get themselves introduced to the game, they do not need a rotation of 5 different mercs because they will get frustrated when they get stuck with mercs they do not like, or mercs that simply suck.

If this means Splash needs to make 5 new mercs for the pure reason of giving people training wheels, then do it.


(KeMoN) #14

I agree that you shouldn’t increase the amount of free mercs and I’m also inclined to agree that you should abolish the existing free mercs (Aura, Skyhammer). There are 3 mercs in rotation, which should be enough.
Beginners can train with those and unlock the other mercs of their choice when it’s time.
Don’t increase the amount of mercs in free rotation either. There is no need to cover all classes. Let the more experienced players that already have mercs unlocked fill in the missing spots.

What I would like to suggest on that topic is:
Let beginners choose their starting merc and give it to them for free!

For that to work we need proper background stories of the mercs, individual videos etc. so new players can make up their mind properly.

Any thoughts?

//EDIT: I understand that everyone of us would lose Aura and Skyhammer in that scenario, but I honestly don’t have a problem with that!