Why is fragger the only merc that is overpowered by design ?

(ragnak) #1

I try to understand it, honestly. I gave up on thinking that SD will ever make him balanced so it just made me think, why is he the only merc in the game that is suppose to be overpowered ?

Even vassili and sparks had a serious nerfs (when both of them werent even a major problem on pub servers) but fragger as always is immune to nerfs (or rather, every time he is nerfed everyone is nerfed as well, like in this case explosives not insta gibbing so easy anymore).

I also dont like the fact that he is the meta while being the counter for said meta.

So, SD, would you kindly tell me why is fragger the only merc in this game to be bluntly overpowered for over a year now ?

(Cankor) #2

Fragger is over-powered by design because his one role is taking out opposing players, that’s it, that’s all he is supposed to do. So he should be over-powered vs. other mercs.

Each merc has something he brings to the team that makes him valuable. These things are reflected in the XP awards for doing various tasks. Those XP awards are intended to encourage playing for the team and not just going after kills. You get XP for fulfilling your role: Medics get XP for reviving and handing out health pacs; support for handing out ammo; covert for helping to reveal enemy players; etc.

Ideally, the XP/Minute you get by being a good team player is balanced across all mercs. Every merc gets combat XP, and all have the potential to get game mode XP (doing the objective, but of course engies are better at that). But soldiers pretty much only get XP from killing, so to balance their XP/minute they need to be able to kill more, which makes sense because that is their role.

When everything is balanced, the abilities of the other mercs should offset the advantage fragger has in combat. If fragger is getting K/D of 2:1 vs a medics 1:1, but that medic is rezzing one player for every one that dies, the medic is still balanced with fragger as he is offsetting that extra kill (this is ignoring the engie doing the objective covert revealing players, etc., but those are all part of the balance as well)

(mccrorie) #3

I suspect the success of Fragger is a symptom of the lack of depth in DB. With this many characters in a game you might expect a bit more complexity, but really it’s all about fragging as fast as possible and planting/defusing/repairing (and you don’t even need an engineer to accomplish these tasks). Whatever character achieves that aim most efficiently is the best pick.

DB doesn’t even have true ancillary characters as there are multiple redundancies built into the system, making the opportunity cost of taking more Fraggers less noticeable.

(mcaso123) #4

Because he’s supposed to be the person who does the huge ammounts of damage. He’s classified as the main damage per second guy. Most mercs in general usually have an ability that contributes to more than just themselves or their own power, he doesn’t, he’s one of the only mercs with one ability.
Skyhammer can do airstrikes and deal ammo, so can stoker. Naders have grenade launchers. Fragger is one of the only mercs whos main duty is damgae, so its obvious he’s going to be doing alot of it.

(ragnak) #5

Its not just about the damage, its about his durability which i said multiple times. As it stands fragger have more hp, better main guns and arguable better ability (there are places that grenade launcher is better, but there isnt a lot of them) than nader and both of them have the same role, dealing damage.

Its not that nader is weak, because she is strong but fragger is simply stronger and offer less counter play (especially because of unshakeable, who thought it would be a good idea to give him this augument).

(Cankor) #6

[QUOTE=ragnak;541415]
Its not that nader is weak, because she is strong but fragger is simply stronger and offer less counter play (especially because of unshakeable, who thought it would be a good idea to give him this augument).[/QUOTE]

Seems to me Fragger should be better at killing than Nader because Nader has better ability to damage EV and generators.

I wonder how much XP/Minute you get as Fragger compared to the other classes? Assuming XP is a good indication of value (which is the ultimate goal, giving XP for things which help your team win the game such that items of equal value generate equal XP awards).

I get way more kills/minute playing Nader than I do playing sawbonez, but my XP/minute for the two are within 3% of each other, this makes perfect sense to me.

My kills/minute for Bushwhacker is almost exactly half way between Nader and Sawbonez, which also makes sense given the Turret, but I get more XP/minute playing Bushwhacker than Sawbonez, but the difference is still only around 6%, which I would say is pretty darn close.

Interested in knowing what other players XP/minute playing Fragger is vs the other classes? (I hardly ever play Fragger, I tend to opt for Nader because of ability to damage EV or Generator, I’ve actually played Arty twice as long as Fragger).

(ragnak) #7

XP per minute is pretty meaningless, since 10/40 aura can get more xp then 50/5 fragger. As an interesting fact, my KPM and SPM is highest on kira which doesnt mean she is strong, let alone overpowered.

I only use fragger when i struggle in a game, meaning my kpm and spm will be lower on him than on mercs that i constantly play (my spm with sawbones is one of the lowest from all the mercs, yet he is one of the merc that i am better with).

Raw data is often misleading, thats why SD struggle so much with echo. As a side note, i would welcome thunder model/hit box/move speed on fragger, since thunder is a lot easier to kill even with 10 hp more, it might be just enough to get fragger in a good spot.

(Cankor) #8

[QUOTE=ragnak;541957]XP per minute is pretty meaningless, since 10/40 aura can get more xp then 50/5 fragger. As an interesting fact, my KPM and SPM is highest on kira which doesnt mean she is strong, let alone overpowered.

I only use fragger when i struggle in a game, meaning my kpm and spm will be lower on him than on mercs that i constantly play (my spm with sawbones is one of the lowest from all the mercs, yet he is one of the merc that i am better with).

Raw data is often misleading, thats why SD struggle so much with echo. As a side note, i would welcome thunder model/hit box/move speed on fragger, since thunder is a lot easier to kill even with 10 hp more, it might be just enough to get fragger in a good spot.[/QUOTE]

Guess you’re right, I see I have way more XP/Minute with aura than most other classes, (interesting for me is I have the most with skyhammer). Probably wishful thinking that they could balance them so you can get similar XP/minute playing them to their intended roles, too many variables to consider. For example, aura in an 8v8 has far greater opportunity to farm XP than in a 5v5, whereas if you are playing engie going for objectives it’s reversed since there is fewer chances of doing them as there will be other engies working them.

(Szakalot) #9

seems to me that TOTAL k/d and TOTAL w/l are the best options here. Maybe total score/minute as well.

On pubs I get similar k/d’s no matter which class I play, cause pubz. You can’t statpad your k/d with Fragger too much cause no medics will help you push. Similarly, less lethal Aura can abuse her station to rack up kills against clueless pubbers.

(Cankor) #10

[QUOTE=Szakalot;541965]seems to me that TOTAL k/d and TOTAL w/l are the best options here. Maybe total score/minute as well.

On pubs I get similar k/d’s no matter which class I play, cause pubz. You can’t statpad your k/d with Fragger too much cause no medics will help you push. Similarly, less lethal Aura can abuse her station to rack up kills against clueless pubbers.[/QUOTE]

my K/D’s are really erratic, especially on uneven games. It also varies by merc, much higher on the soldier classes. I’m not very good though.

But your XP/Min incorporates your K/D performance, the higher your K/D the higher your XP/Min because you get XP for your kills and you’re unable to earn any when you are dead. So that performance is built into the metric beyond just killing (combat XP), your deaths affect it too, and it includes the important stuff outside of killing and staying alive (support XP and game mode XP).

(Szakalot) #11

[QUOTE=Cankor;542013]my K/D’s are really erratic, especially on uneven games. It also varies by merc, much higher on the soldier classes. I’m not very good though.

But your XP/Min incorporates your K/D performance, the higher your K/D the higher your XP/Min because you get XP for your kills and you’re unable to earn any when you are dead. So that performance is built into the metric beyond just killing (combat XP), your deaths affect it too, and it includes the important stuff outside of killing and staying alive (support XP and game mode XP).[/QUOTE]

i think you need to consider both. you might have an obj whore who has disproportionately high score/min, but doesnt help their team. similarly a stacking player will have higher score than their skill.

win/lose is an obvious indicator, but i dont see any reason not to consider all 3 together, equally

(Apples) #12

Win/lose will imo stays a broken indicator as long as the balance cant be achieved, you simply cant win a game by yourself unless you are a beast (some are indeed) but vs not so clueless players it is simply not possible, as long as teams wont be more balanced from the beginning I clearly dont see how win/lose can be a non biased indicator.

(Szakalot) #13

this applies to everyone, and unless someone is significantly ragequitting will affect everyone equally. a better player will still win more.

(Apples) #14

Statistically after many games yes, a better player “should” win more, but there is a non negligeable chance that he’ll play with newbies more time than he plays with a decent team, affecting more his win / lose than his kdr for exemple. Well it might be because I’m average, but I find it easier to have a decent kdr in a bad team than winning in a bad team, maybe a really “good” player can makes his team win by himself, but I find it hard.

Anyway, any indicator will be affected by team balance, thats why stat are imo biased untill a decent balancing is enforced, I’m not asking for “the godlike solution” because in any shooter unbalanced teams are present and we have to deal with it in the end, but DB is (to me) super unbalanced at this state, as you and other said many times, ranked server, individual switch etc could be some measures to counter these bias.

(Szakalot) #15

that is circular. How is good balancing to be implemented if it cannot judge player performance properly, based off stats?

Imo after 100h+ of hours of gameplay clear patterns will emerge as far as total k/d, total score/min and total w/l. Yeah, one player might whore lvl1-10 players, or stack with friends, and another might play minlvl10 exclusively, and switch teams to balance, even if it gives him a loss. In the end, for the majority of players these ‘total stats’ will be representative of their skill.

That is why these ‘total stats’ should be considered along with the present system that looks at the performance of most recent matches. E.g. 50-50 between the two, where the former 50 is comprised of 3x 16% factors : total k/d, total w/l, total score/min.

(prophett) #16

I feel his nade got a pretty big nerf last patch.

(poiuasd) #17

^

If the nades remain unchanged until Thunder comes along I wouldn’t be surprised if teams started running Thunder instead of Fragger.

(ragnak) #18

Not that i could feel his nade nerfs, aside from the fact that its harder to insta gib. Thunder had weaker guns than fragger and his nades were pretty weak as well, so unless there were some buffs i dont see it happening. To be fair even without his ability fragger is annoying as hell, he shouldnt have access to long range weapons while having 150 hp (especially that those guns happen to be the best guns).

(montheponies) #19

Another patch another fragger post. Nothing if not consistent I guess.

His nade is now nerfed, I only use the M4A1 (for the unshakeable perk), so all he has is the additional HP. He’s meant to be the tank, not certain how you can ever balance that against a ‘light’ without just making everyone the same?

(ragnak) #20

-10hp and longer cook time, as i said months ago. I simply dont see any better way without making him less fun to play.