How to balance Vassili 101 + good patch notes that actually make senes


(chickenNwaffles) #1

It’s pretty easy, actually, to balance the most OP merc in the game. I’ve had this idea (and so have other people) for a while, so it is by all means not new. Oh, and I apologize for saying that these changes were bad for so long: the more I thought about them, the better they sounded.

Instagibbing is NOT fun, at all. That’s why I believe that there should be 0, forms of instagibbing in the game; for this would make Dirty Bomb more fun, less frustrating, and more team based (esp. with the new medic changes).

Vassili

  • [li] Head shots no longer instantly gib players.
    [/li]
    “This change is intended to make Vassili less frustrating and less potent in public and competitive matches alike; Vassili is too strong in the right hands, and has little to no counter play besides a coutner sniper.”


    [li] Vassili’s bolt-action primaries now take one shot to gib a downed player - no matter where you shoot them.
    [/li]
    “This is intended to counteract the instagib change, by still making Vassili effective in the sense that he can pick a target, down them (with a head shot) then quickly gib them before a medic arrives, making him less threatening, but still a viable choice - further changes to sniper bolt time (the time inbetween shots) might be needed.”

    “Randomness is neither fun, nor skill inducing. We intend to make the game as less frustrating as possible, starting with the sniping mechanics.”


    [li] Removed all forms of sniper scope sway - there no sway and randomness for all forms of movement (that includes jumping).
    [/li]
    “Now we are just trying to compensate for the first change, since it was a very drastic and game changing one. With these scope changes, we believe that we are making sniping more about player skill and less about fighting randomness; sniping should always have a high skill-cap and we will never do anything to reduce that skill-ceiling.”


    [li] Removed the inaccuracy when you first scope in - when you scope, the scope goes directly to where your crosshair is
    [/li]
    “This is another quality of life change for sniping that will hopefully counteract the instagib changes by making Vassili feel less random and more fun to play. Quick-scoping is not possible in the game, so this change wont have much impact.”

Gameplay

  • [li] Accuracy of all weapons (while hipfiring) has now been equalized across all type of movement: your gun shoots the same regardless if you are standing still, strafing, or jumping.
    [/li]

    [li] In regards to the first change, weapon’s accuracies feel somewhere between the accuracy of standing still and strafing.
    [/li]
    "Here at Splash Damage, we believe that freedom of movement is of up most importance to us, that’s why we believe that movement should be encouraged in fights, rather then punished with increased spread.


    [li] Reverted all knife changes.
    [/li]
    Since the 360 knifing was never really a problem, and that the changes to melee that we made were actually insane and dumb, we decided that it was best to just make the knifing feel normal again

That’s about it, really, because it’s that ****ing simple. You just to actually have to play the game and be good at it in order to make sane balance choices; I’m not sure why Splash Damage take all of our long ass posts (like this one) with a grain of ****ing salt and just do something insane like the knife BS.

Even if this game had a public test realm (PTR) patches would sill be garbage, because SD just tends ignore all of our good decisions.

We should just have a ****ing straw poll for balance changes PEPE.

I barely play this game anymore, so I’m pretty indifferent about where this train wreck wants to go.

Dank you berry much for ur tiem :^)


(spookify) #2

Very Nice…


(shibbyuk) #3

I may or may not agree with some of this, however I know that SD firmly believe that snipers should instagib.

Also, unfortunately, balance is not a matter of opinion and has to be backed up with testing and data. However, I don’t think your suggestions are actually balance changes at all but, rather, suggestions to improve fun.

It’s a shame there isn’t a way for some of the public to test the balance effects of desirable changes (e.g. removal of sway) and adjust the other things to compensate.


(Destroy666) #4

Removing the sway and 1st scope-in inaccuracy would make them more annoying even with 5 other nerfs… Instagibbing is a fine feature, the ease of instagibbing is not fine.


(chickenNwaffles) #5

It’s posts like these that remind me that people tend to give opinions on things that they are not qualified to give an opinion on!

If you have ever sniped, you know that the scope sway and the inaccuracy are just annoying and wouldn’t magically land every headshot: they would simply make playing Vassili more fun! How? By removing frustration.

Instagibbing is NOT a fine feature. I guess you just never play vs good players or something and take all of the logic you get from public matches and just regurgitate it on here.

Think before you post!

I don’t think there is one good argument for instagibbing, because it’s an anti-fun mechanic that adds unnecessary frustration and some randomness to the game; why would you want to put more power into one single persons hands (snipers, fraggers, ect) rather than spread it out and help keep the game more team oriented?

Playing this game at the higheset level of play, vs the best players (which I have done) can be insanely frustrating and lackluster.


(chickenNwaffles) #6

[QUOTE=shibbyuk;536141]I may or may not agree with some of this, however I know that SD firmly believe that snipers should instagib.

Also, unfortunately, balance is not a matter of opinion and has to be backed up with testing and data. However, I don’t think your suggestions are actually balance changes at all but, rather, suggestions to improve fun.

It’s a shame there isn’t a way for some of the public to test the balance effects of desirable changes (e.g. removal of sway) and adjust the other things to compensate.[/QUOTE]

That’s not entirely true.

I’ve addressed the only issue with Vassili - and addressed it pretty well - which is instagibbing.

You are right, however, that I have inadvertently increased fun with these changes, but what’s not to love about increased fun?


(ragnak) #7

As long as it comes with some other nerf to at least moa (be it lower body damage or lower rof) i might agree with removing the bull**** no one wants, but with insta gibs or not, i still find vasilli too strong. To be fair, you are here long enough to know that SD worship their RNG gods and that probably wont change :).


(chickenNwaffles) #8

I’d be completely fine with the moa doing say, 50 dmg to the body, but still 1 shotting downed bodies. I forgot to mention that, actually.

Vassili will be in a much better spot if this stuff went through, and maybe even better if his rof was decreased.


(ailmanki) #9

here have another reasoning,

Player David is very good at target practice, but has no good movement, nor situational awareness, but really good at shooting what is on the screen.
So he would be an excellent asset as long as he plays Vassili and by some chance has a good position.

But then ranking should kick in, and move him up… and suddenly he is outclassed when he plays another merc.
So he will be frustrated… lol, and lets not even talk about the guys he wiped out.

Sure this can also be solved by extra care when distributing stats… lol. Systems to patch existing systems only proof that the system is wrong, and secondly, it will need another system on top sooner or later.

Sniping cannot be done in a more skillful manner as it is. Only if you would add a new mechanic, like lets say you got real bullet simulation, and need to counteract wind or distance… But somehow that wouldn’t fit DirtyBomb’s map size and locations… Although I don’t know how windy London is.
There are only the stupid things, like narrow down vision, add random movement, add huge delays…
An interesting thing could be osmething like a helmet, and only if you hit certain points on that helmet it instagibs… but eh that’s just crazy. Although while I would be unable, I am sure some guys could land them.


(Sagan_on_Roids) #10

[QUOTE=chickenNwaffles;536139]Oh, and I apologize for saying that these changes were bad for so long: the more I thought about them, the better they sounded.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=chickenNwaffles;536144]It’s posts like these that remind me that people tend to give opinions on things that they are not qualified to give an opinion on!

[…]

Instagibbing is NOT a fine feature. I guess you just never play vs good players or something and take all of the logic you get from public matches and just regurgitate it on here.

Think before you post![/QUOTE]

Hmm, I guess you weren’t qualified to give an opinion before either? :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree with all these proposed changes.


(chickenNwaffles) #11

[QUOTE=Sagan_on_Roids;536151]Hmm, I guess you weren’t qualified to give an opinion before either? :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree with all these proposed changes.[/QUOTE]

Well meme’d friendo :^)


(Glottis-3D) #12

i agree on this. lets do this!


(Daerados) #13

I love reading stuff here, but this… I just couldn’t resist to create an account to replay this silly thread. Silly vasili ye :slight_smile:

In such fast paced game you want to nerf someone who relies on pinpoint accuracy, alone merc from all who can do good by one and only one thing - aiming skill. I guess all of you here - you’re very very good with him to offer something like this? It’s so easy to land shots… oh wait, don’t answer me, pubstomping? Even better, your holding mouse1 with spamming mercs is not so rewarding?

counter… really? Didn’t mentioned phantom at all? Oh wait, same threads made him worse too, awareness was too hard. Damn, Vasilis time.

edit: about corpse finishing after all this made laugh, really.

edit2: Jump shots? You talk about this like it’s so mainstream to pull one off, I laugh at guys who saying their crouch jump spam kills with rifles and shotguns are tricky/skillful/cool. Some, after being killed by this art is inspired or atleast thinks how to avoid it, other ones go and create such threads on forum. Apologize if rude, but that’s how I see this.

P.S. I’m not by any means a good Vasili, I played Phantom before, community made me sad after slowpoke mode melee patch. But because of this I tried someone who have high learning curve and skill celling, not just ratatatatatatatatatatata.


(chickenNwaffles) #14

[QUOTE=Daerados;536162]I love reading stuff here, but this… I just couldn’t resist to create an account to replay this silly thread. Silly vasili ye :slight_smile:

In such fast paced game you want to nerf someone who relies on pinpoint accuracy, alone merc from all who can do good by one and only one thing - aiming skill. I guess all of you here - you’re very very good with him to offer something like this? It’s so easy to land shots… oh wait, don’t answer me, pubstomping? Even better, your holding mouse1 with spamming mercs is not so rewarding?

counter… really? Didn’t mentioned phantom at all? Oh wait, same threads made him worse too, awareness was too hard. Damn, Vasilis time.

edit: about corpse finishing after all this made laugh, really.

edit2: Jump shots? You talk about this like it’s so mainstream to pull one off, I laugh at guys who saying their crouch jump spam kills with rifles and shotguns are tricky/skillful/cool. Some, after being killed by this art is inspired or atleast thinks how to avoid it, other ones go and create such threads on forum. Apologize if rude, but that’s how I see this.

P.S. I’m not by any means a good Vasili, I played Phantom before, community made me sad after slowpoke mode melee patch. But because of this I tried someone who have high learning curve and skill celling, not just ratatatatatatatatatatata.[/QUOTE]

It took you one post to actually give me cancer, grats man on being the most ignorant dumbass on this forum.

LOL


(chickenNwaffles) #15

Please, if you have little to no experience playing as a sniper or against snipers in a high(er) level of play, don’t comment in this thread, because what you say will probably make little to no sense at all.


(Glottis-3D) #16

yeah, lets leave this thread constructive for at least 1 page.
More thoughts on this from good/awesome snipers is very appretiated.


(Daerados) #17

Well, you just you shown how much of a person you are yourself with your reputation comment: “He is a ****ign idiot” Now it’s personal? Never mind me, I’m just having opinion and hope developers will listen to people with arguments, not bunch of Shia LaBeoufs saying “Just do it” after reading title :slight_smile: And “almost not playing” rude guy like you, offended by Vasili players.

Even if I said I’m not that good sniper (max gold 2), however, I believe, playing solo, I can’t go further for now, because of teamplay reasons (not mentioning occasionally hackers). From my own perspective and trying to say that, imho, he’s pretty much most balanced class in the game and I played every merc, all of which are boring in terms of killing. Why? Occasionally, I play as fragger ending ~70/10 (not pub), it doesn’t feels rewarding. In this game not amount kills that matters, but which kills you make. I’ll better make less kills with Vasili, but such kills, which helps team and not doing ratatatta without effect saying at the end of the game"This team…" like many people does. Main reason I play Vasili not to kill, but kill in a such way, so they won’t make it (can’t be resurrected).

Why he’s balanced? Vasili is such merc, if player wants to be a use for a team, he definitely needs not just a good aim, but a good game sense, because players here have a bright red !glow!, even more (?it’s only merc?) who has white gun tracers after every shot. What else can be more done to show enemy team where to be out of sight?? That’s why it takes more from Vasili (than you to just avoid fire) to be unpredictable and constantly change positions and also carefully choosing targets, because others should just bail after first kill. All Vasili can do nothing else than pop heads to precisely eliminate key players of opposite team at high level ranks.

So. One of suggestion was to lower damage, If I read it right, make bolt actions somewhat like auto snipers right now. What will be with auto snipers (I don’t care about them, they are lame), but still they will transform to something like semi-auto assault rifle damage? Let’s say it was done. What Vasili is now? Not a better than a bodyshooters right now. Tag enemy and he will retreat to heal (because otherwise you won’t retreat even if he sees red glowing Vasili from other part of map and white line from his gun after he killed your teammate). I doubt someone other than new players will play him anymore.

Second, which made me giggle. After “Make harder to kill moving targets” - “Make easier to kill downed target”. It takes almost no effort to kill lying dude with a headshot. Enough said.

Scope. Right now - It’s ok. I mean, I also don’t like random stuff. But still, not a problem. All players, who played this game more than a ?10? hours, knows that movement is a key. However, let’s not overextend. If everyone will have perfect accuracy despite on movement, would be boring. It’s fine as it is. With Arty I also thought about that, but then on the other side I imagined possibilities, not balanced :slight_smile: As I said, let’s won’t mess with it.

About melee, not about Vasili much. But it was interesting feeling after getting used to the first one. Like you hit mouse2 with a force and can’t change momentum right away. You shouldn’t normally melee, only from behind or something and if you screw up, you will most likely die. For phantom it indeed was overnerf, he’s melee specialist kinda, could’ve not touched him.


(Daerados) #18

Well, you just you shown how much of a person, chicken. You are yourself with your reputation comment: “He is a ****ign idiot” Now it’s personal? Never mind me, I’m just having opinion and hope developers will listen to people with arguments, not bunch of Shia LaBeoufs saying “Just do it” after reading title :slight_smile: And “almost not playing” rude guy like you, offended by Vasili players.

Even if I said I’m not that good sniper (max gold 2), however, I believe, playing solo, I can’t go further for now, because of teamplay reasons (not mentioning occasionally hackers). From my own perspective and trying to say that, imho, he’s pretty much most balanced class in the game and I played every merc, all of which are boring in terms of killing. Why? Occasionally, I play as fragger ending ~70/10 (not pub), it doesn’t feels rewarding. In this game not amount kills that matters, but which kills you make. I’ll better make less kills with Vasili, but such kills, which helps team and not doing ratatatta without effect saying at the end of the game"This team…" like many people does. Main reason I play Vasili not to kill, but kill in a such way, so they won’t make it (can’t be resurrected).

Why he’s balanced? Vasili is such merc, if player wants to be a use for a team, he definitely needs not just a good aim, but a good game sense, because players here have a bright red !glow!, even more (?it’s only merc?) who has white gun tracers after every shot. What else can be more done to show enemy team where to be out of sight?? That’s why it takes more from Vasili (than you to just avoid fire) to be unpredictable and constantly change positions and also carefully choosing targets, because others should just bail after first kill. All Vasili can do nothing else than pop heads to precisely eliminate key players of opposite team at high level ranks.

So. One of suggestion was to lower damage, If I read it right, make bolt actions somewhat like auto snipers right now. What will be with auto snipers (I don’t care about them, they are lame), but still they will transform to something like semi-auto assault rifle damage? Let’s say it was done. What Vasili is now? Not a better than a bodyshooters right now. Tag enemy and he will retreat to heal (because otherwise you won’t retreat even if he sees red glowing Vasili from other part of map and white line from his gun after he killed your teammate). I doubt someone other than new players will play him anymore.

Second, which made me giggle. After “Make harder to kill moving targets” - “Make easier to kill downed target”. It takes almost no effort to kill lying dude with a headshot. Enough said.

Scope. Right now - It’s ok. I mean, I also don’t like random stuff. But still, not a problem. All players, who played this game more than a ?10? hours, knows that movement is a key. However, let’s not overextend. If everyone will have perfect accuracy despite on movement, would be boring. It’s fine as it is. With Arty I also thought about that, but then on the other side I imagined possibilities, not balanced :slight_smile: As I said, let’s won’t mess with it.

About melee, not about Vasili much. But it was interesting feeling after getting used to the first one. Like you hit mouse2 with a force and can’t change momentum right away. You shouldn’t normally melee, only from behind or something and if you screw up, you will most likely die. For phantom it indeed was overnerf, he’s melee specialist kinda, could’ve not touched him.


(Daerados) #19

I apologize for double post. Haven’t realized about moderation. Moderators, please delete this post and last one without reply waiting for approve. Thank you.


(Daerados) #20

Did moderator unapproved my reply, because of quote what OP left at my reputation page? Kinda sad, it was a long work.