Why I Hate The Melee Changes...


(PixelTwitch) #1

Recently we saw the addition of a turn speed limit placed on melee strikes when in the section of the animation where damage is applied. The reason for this change was to prevent an exploit that would allow a player to spin around X number of times applying damage in a 360 degree area of effect around the player. While this has always been a possibility it really only came to the center of attention with the release of Phantom and most importantly the sword he comes equipped with.

My major concerns with the change really focuses on the fact that this nerfs certain none exploitative play styles more than others and it negatively effects the kinesthetics of gameplay interaction. First off, when looking at who it effects worse we need to understand what kind of players we are talking about. The current change results in more slowdown the faster that you move the mouse (kind of like negative acceleration on steroids) This simply means the quicker you move the mouse the slower you turn. Players that play on a very low sensitivity and rely heavily on wrist flicks to do large turns are punished more than players who play with more slowly controlled swipes. You don’t need to make a huge leap of faith to also come to the conclusion this also means the change effects higher skill players who play very quick than lower skilled players that generally play very slow. Moving on to the kinesthetics the problem should be fairly obvious. Quite a high number of your more advanced and regular players have crossed that line where they no longer think about moving their mouse or pressing a certain button and instead see it like looking in a certain direction and doing a certain thing. With immersion and mastery you hopefully always lose the feeling of interface and should never have to think about what your hands are doing. You become one with the game and you think about what you want to do rather than pressing buttons. Once you throw any sort of randomness or inconsistency into the pipeline you totally knock a players confidence and feeling of immersion. This can lead to lower average play times, increased frustration and slower individual skill improvements.

Dirty Bomb is suffering more multiple blockages in this pipeline though poorly implemented features and mechanics and it seems Splash Damage feel its a good idea to balance mechanics via adjusting their feel. This is very rarely a good idea. Stuff like…

  • Uncontrollable Aim Punch
  • Sniper Scope Sway
  • Random ADS center position
  • Clumsy Movement System
  • Melee Turn Speed Limit
  • Crouch Delay On Forward Sprinting

There where multiple different options that would have worked just as well to remove any exploits. Such as limiting to X number of turns during a single melee animation, Having the half the damage on a melee strike only apply for a single frame, Only applying to the sword and cricket bat and even only having it on the secondary attack for all melee weapons. Once again we are in a position where out of all the viable options the worst one was chosen.

I hope to see the slowdown completely removed from the primary strike on all current melee weapons. Just because Splash Damage slightly reduced the slowdown in a recent patch does not mean its all good again now… Something being better now than it was last week does not excuse it for not being as good as it was a month ago. We saw this with the Aim Punch and Sniper Sway already… Don’t let this Melee Turn Limit be yet another poorly designed compromise.

Thank you…


(watsyurdeal) #2

Absolutely agree

The reality is, even if they do try to tinker with it, they already changed how the katana deals it’s damage, so there’s no need to change something that NOBODY had a problem with until a certain catalyst was added.


(D'@athi) #3

Full ack, but the part where you call lowsense-players lowskilled, and highsense-players highskilled. Seen every combination of it.

But if I was told correct,the meelee-turnspeed-thing was based on problems with the netcode stopping the devs from taking an easy approach.
Still this one, was quite honestly… T h e w o r s t i d e a … E V A

PS: Edit just whispered… The game also simply doesn’t have enough problems with the missing of a real “direct” input. So, …


(Lei34) #4

While I do think sniper needs a little reworking with his ability to oneshot and gib almost every merc in the game, the scope sway definitely needs to go.


(PixelTwitch) #5

[quote=“D’@athi;57815”]Full ack, but the part where you call lowsense-players lowskilled, and highsense-players highskilled. Seen every combination of it.
[/quote]

Hey, this was not supposed to be an observation on high or low sensitivity just the speed in which they play. Generally you will not see the more casual players doing crazy mouse flicks insta switching to knife to gib and flicking around to kill a guy behind them. That is all I was getting at :slight_smile:


(D'@athi) #6

Ah ok, sorry, I misunderstood this then, sry.


(XavienX) #7

Also, it’s literally impossible to knife now. There is a bug with the katana where I lunge knifed a Rhino that is afk and got no hitmarker nor did any damage. I don’t know if I was just retarded and missed or something.
The hitbox duration and timing of the knife animation has been decreased so it’s more precise, but think about it. This game, all mercs move very fast for a FPS game and when you knife, there isn’t any lock ons like CoD. Now the sensivity melee turn speed changed and the hitbox duration was massively decreased making everything just horrible. It’s even hard to finish a downed opponent now even if you’re just off by a bit.


(Gi.Am) #8

Sorry but I have to disagree quite a bit here.
First I have to call you out on the whole sensitivity thing. I mean it just limits the ammount you can turn in a given timeframe. It really doesn’t matter, wether you have low or high sens, wether you play with arm movement or wrist movement. If you initiated a melee attack and try to do a 180 (or just a 20) in a too short timeframe, the system will prevent that and only move you a set degree instead.

With that out of the way. I like the new system, as the patchnotes said, it was done not only to kill the spin exploit, but also to add more skill to melee in general.

And that was indeed needed. And the new system does exactly that. The old system allowed you to hit attack and then move freely to hit your target. The new system means that when you hit attack you are commiting to the direction of that attack. Which simply means you have to aim first and considering the attack animation delay, you have to lead your target (skillfloor increase).

It also means unlike the old system that you get more options to dodge melee attacks by moving in another direction than the attacker anticipated, beforehand your only escape route was getting out of range (either being the faster merc and backpedaling or trying to jump out of reach).

The new system also has another advantage, in giving more ways to tweak melee weapons. Small knifes are now faster and more mobile, while large weapons, having more range and damage lock you down more (which as far as immersion/realism goes makes sense heavy swings are not possible to redirect).
Before the tweaking Knife loadouts on Phantom made no sense. Now it does, wanna traverse maps faster and stay more agile in melee, take a knife loadout. Want more reach and oneshot squishies, take the katana.

Which brings me to the whole high skilled immersion factor. The Turnspeed limiter isn’t affecting normal movement (nothing changes when you dodge or shoot).
It only changes the behaviour to melee attacks and it does so in a predicable way (depending on weapon size and attackmode, I get locked down more), which means that it can be mastered and will become second nature soon enough again for highskilled players (Those that join in later don’t come with the baggage of the old system anyways).

Overall I think the new system will in the end add more, layers to melee weapons and make for more skilled fights.

And just for the records the first iteration was indeed garbage and killed melee for a bit but the direction those latest tweaks move are imo good, of course there is still room for improvement (for example the katana still gets locked for too long on a heavy melee).

Not gonna touch the other stuff don’t know half of them. Tho I suspect that I could come up with similar objections for some.


(pDub) #9

games going to shit fast, These are just a few of the major problems the game has.


(PixelTwitch) #10

[quote=“Gi.Am;57873”]Sorry but I have to disagree quite a bit here.
First I have to call you out on the whole sensitivity thing. I mean it just limits the ammount you can turn in a given timeframe. It really doesn’t matter, wether you have low or high sens, wether you play with arm movement or wrist movement. If you initiated a melee attack and try to do a 180 (or just a 20) in a too short timeframe, the system will prevent that and only move you a set degree instead.

With that out of the way. I like the new system, as the patchnotes said, it was done not only to kill the spin exploit, but also to add more skill to melee in general.

And that was indeed needed. And the new system does exactly that. The old system allowed you to hit attack and then move freely to hit your target. The new system means that when you hit attack you are commiting to the direction of that attack. Which simply means you have to aim first and considering the attack animation delay, you have to lead your target (skillfloor increase).

It also means unlike the old system that you get more options to dodge melee attacks by moving in another direction than the attacker anticipated, beforehand your only escape route was getting out of range (either being the faster merc and backpedaling or trying to jump out of reach).

The new system also has another advantage, in giving more ways to tweak melee weapons. Small knifes are now faster and more mobile, while large weapons, having more range and damage lock you down more (which as far as immersion/realism goes makes sense heavy swings are not possible to redirect).
Before the tweaking Knife loadouts on Phantom made no sense. Now it does, wanna traverse maps faster and stay more agile in melee, take a knife loadout. Want more reach and oneshot squishies, take the katana.

Which brings me to the whole high skilled immersion factor. The Turnspeed limiter isn’t affecting normal movement (nothing changes when you dodge or shoot).
It only changes the behaviour to melee attacks and it does so in a predicable way (depending on weapon size and attackmode, I get locked down more), which means that it can be mastered and will become second nature soon enough again for highskilled players (Those that join in later don’t come with the baggage of the old system anyways).

Overall I think the new system will in the end add more, layers to melee weapons and make for more skilled fights.

And just for the records the first iteration was indeed garbage and killed melee for a bit but the direction those latest tweaks move are imo good, of course there is still room for improvement (for example the katana still gets locked for too long on a heavy melee).

Not gonna touch the other stuff don’t know half of them. Tho I suspect that I could come up with similar objections for some.[/quote]

Sorry but there are all sorts of holes in what you are saying…

First off you are incorrect about what you are saying about the high and low sensitivity. The way the slowdown works is the faster you move the slower you turn. This means high sense players can move their mouse in a smooth swipe to re-align the the view where low sense players that rely on quick flicks of the wrist actually don’t turn at all during the slowdown. it does not do “set degree” like you said.

When it comes to saying “skill” I don’t believe that there is as much skill in randomness and inconsistency as you seem to think there is.

Then looking at what you say about more variation in the melee system… Where is it? Every melee weapon handles exactly the same as each other right now, simply with different range and damage stats. So its hardly encouraging deep and meaningful changes.

The big question is, where was the problem before Phantom?

The simple fact is the knife is primarily used in Dirty Bomb for gibbing players that are on the ground. So from the instant you get the gib you are locked looking at the ground for x amount of time. There are so many other ways of doing this better than what we have now. We could have even seen the primary knife do half the damage it currently does because when it comes to trying to knife players the majority of the time you will go with the secondary swipe because its about doing max damage in a short period of time. If you are on low hp and close and a player does the primary swipe, there is a good chance you deserved to lose the fight anyway if you die.


(RadicalMac) #11

I never saw a problem with it at all. I mean it’s completely logical for if your head gets blown off by a sniper rifle, you aren’t coming back up from that. If you died from him it just means he killed you. #OhWell Go after him again and don’t let him shoot ya m8. ezpz


(avidCow) #12

I never saw a problem with it at all. I mean it’s completely logical for if your head gets blown off by a sniper rifle, you aren’t coming back up from that. If you died from him it just means he killed you. #OhWell Go after him again and don’t let him shoot ya m8. ezpz[/quote]

That kind of logic has nothing to do with it. It’s a balance issue.

If you died from him it just means he killed you.

…yes


(Snark) #13

Same logic applies if someone’s hit with a heavy cal sniper round in the chest. It’s the gameplay that matters.


(RadicalMac) #14

If you died from him it just means he killed you. Yeah. I’m saying it DOESN’T mean he needs a balance. It simply means you were killed by an opponent better than you.


(RadicalMac) #15

@Snark But do you people really want him weak to the point where it’s a two hit headshot with a sniper rifle? Or to a point where shooting someone in the face with a heavy caliber rifle doesn’t kill them immediately, but instead downs them to be revived?


(KangaJoo) #16

Couldn’t agree more with pixel, especially on the topics listed towards the end. As for the knifing thing, they should just make the hit window shorter so if you miss there’s no time to correct for it. Even with the changes yesterday it still feels like the game is forcing me to perform actions slowly. Sure it’s better than before, but it’s still a bad solution to the problem.


(Fap Fap Master) #17

Next thing they should do is limit your turnspeed when you shoot your gun, its too easy to track people and get a kill.
I understand the melee change… People were getting tons of kills from the beyblade macro sarcasm

On a serious note, holy shit the melee is so bad, katana has no range at all, even though it looks like u hit them, u have to kiss them to actually hit them. I wouldn’t mind having the heavy attack have a lunge stab, cause right now it has no momentum to it.


(Gi.Am) #18

@PixelTwitch I have less holes than you might think.
The low versus high sensitivity I think you are mixing those two up.

Assuming no acceleration is in place: a low sensitivity means that any kind of mousemovement wether it is fast or slow, moves you less onscreen than the same distance on a high sensitivity guy. Infact the highsensitivity guy is the one that can use a wristflick to do a 180/360. While lowsense setting means you gotta move the mouse a longer distance (which is slower) to accomplish the same. The lowsense wristflick 180/360 is only possible with acceleration which for quick movements makes you a highsens guy.

Another thing in this regards. The katana exploit showed clearly that if you do quick movements while melee attacking you did gain an advantage (easier time to hit your target compared to not turning) doing the same with with your hand instead of a script still made melee easier and this has been changed now.

As for variations in the melee system? are you reading patchnotes?

Finetuning patch

Cricket Bat - Reduced run speed when equipped by 2.5%
Katana - Reduced run speed when equipped by 2.5%

Hotfix patch

[quote]
The timings for the damaging portion of Melee Attacks have been updated to more closely fit the weapon animations
Previously, the hit duration was very forgiving, meaning that weapons could still potentially deal damage well after the initial strike
This also means that turn-speed limitations can end earlier, which gives players more freedom when performing melee attacks
The allowed turn angle when attacking with melee weapons has been significantly increased and now scales with weapon damage
All melee attacks have been improved, and the lower-damage, high-speed attacks (Primary attacks for the Beckhill and Stilnotto knives in particular) have had their turn speed massively increased [/qoute]

On top of damage and range difference, we now get.

  • Smaller weapons, faster movement speed
  • More damage, less mobility on attack
  • Faster animation quicker mobility regain
  • Fast attack overall better mobility and recovery compared to heavy attacks

Where was the problem before Phantom? while I didn’t mind the old system (after all thats what I was used to). Propably that a Merc (especially a Proxy) could jump into a room with 2+ enemies flail the cricketbat around. And kill all of them without breaking a sweat? Most likely Echho stats showed that melee was a bit too effective in the game warranting a rework.

Gibbing can be done almost as usual now (with the latest hotfix changes in mind), only difference is that you have to aim first (look down) and than swing. Instead of being able to casualy hit swing while approaching and than look down in the moment your attack connects. Yes that might mean you gotta relearn the way you do it.


(PixelTwitch) #19

Actually no I am not getting them confused… A higher sensitivity player is more able to make controlled swipes as a low sense player would normally flick and have to then lift the mouse to re-position.

We honestly have vastly different opinions on what constitutes skill and uniqueness so all I can really say is you are more than welcome to have your own opinion on these changes being worth the tiny bit more “depth” that you believe they add.

One thing that is apparent right now is that quite a few of these changes have a much more profound effect on higher level play (swap, punch, turn limits and more) so while the more casual audience (not saying your casual) accuse others of being too fussy or wrong… The truth is that these changes barely effect them anyway. It is this kinda stuff that is causing the bottom to fall out underneath the “competitive” community


(srswizard) #20

I would like to point out the issue with tampering the hit windows of melee swings, while leaving the animations untouched (not adjusting the animations to match the new hit window).
It’s dumb and misleading.

I generally dislike “features” that hinder freedom of movement and aiming, and this melee limitation is one of the worst “features” added to the game.