So The Snipers Received A Nerf...

(PixelTwitch) #1

So let’s quickly make sure everyone is on the same page…

In the latest patch (21/04/2015) all sniper rifles received a nerf in the form of added scope sway that is applied while moving when scoped in. It appears that this change was left out of the patch notes so I don’t know if there was any other changes at this point in time.

Now, I do believe that the Sniper does need some form of nerf, however I feel the current addition is both ineffective and negativity effects the kinaesthetics of sniping. Honestly, I am pretty certain that this is not due to values related to new scope sway but the mechanic as a whole. First off, it feels odd to use due to the mechanic being really poorly implemented and the way yet more randomness is added. The reason it is fairly ineffective as a nerf is simple, it only actually nerfs more methodical snipers and not the quick/flick/jumping snipers that Splash Damage claim to be targeting.

This is due to the steps a player follows in order to snipe in Dirty Bomb.
You see your enemy, move crosshair towards enemy, scope, see final scope location, flick and shoot… Even when it comes down to the jumping snipers, you only need to know the location of your scope in relation to the person you plan to shoot. The act of flicking and shooting lasts less than 100ms and in that time, unless at the most extreme ranges, the sway would not effect the outcome of a shot in the vast majority of cases. What little difference it does make, does not seem worth the negatives added to more basic sniping that will effect everyone that uses the weapon. Also, it makes the weapon feel harder to use, less fun to use and simply random in many circumstances.

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The game above was me playing around at trying to jump shot and flick shot. Honestly, I don’t know if I found it any harder overall but I am certain I found it much less fun and had a greater feeling of randomness even if the results were pretty much identical to what they would have been prior to the new system.

If jumping snipers are such an issue…
Reduce the jump height of players that jump while looking down the scope by around 30%. You also have the option (that I am personally hoping for generally) to slow the time it takes you to enter the full scoped state. I think this time could be doubled. It would reduce these instant quick scopes, nerf people that jump and then scope when they see someone and overall pull the weapon more in line with the rest.

Personally I am disappointed to see this be the first port of call for numerous reasons. I would hope to see it removed completely and replaced by nerfs that target its problem areas more directly. What does everyone else think?

(Protekt1) #2

They must have just touched on the amount already there cause I remember them adding sway while moving… a looong time ago.

(INF3RN0) #3

Will respond once I get the chance to test the new patch.

(Humbugsen) #4

I also think that snipers needed a slight nerf, but adding randomness is not the way to go. Sniper should definitely stay mobile.

My ideas would be either keep the sway, but add something like a “hold breath bar” that removes the sway for a while.
Or remove instagib and sway but leave them with really low incapacitated HP, so that 1 smg/pistol shot would finish them. The latter would make vasilli more team dependant.

(Mustang) #5

My concern is extreme sway whilst strafing and scoped, this would put me off using sniper over the other things.

Increased time to scope, increased time to zero spread after scoped and increased spread whilst jumping and scoped would all be more preferable.

(Anti) #6

It was missed from the notes by mistake, we’ll be adding it in shortly.

The biggest thing we’re looking to control with the sway (and it is only sway that changed) is the amount of jump sniping.

This is a balance change that has been very much made as a test rather, than a solid direction change. We want to see what impact this change has and then come back to it. As people have said we’re looking for a way to reduce Vassili’s impact slightly but our preference is to avoid certain changes, especially the head shot gibs which we feel are pretty important for snipers to be effective against revives.

(poiuasd) #7

The strafing sway needs to be reduced or just take it away completely. You can already make Vassilis pretty much helpless with crouchspamming and aimpunching the **** out of them by shooting at them, the sway is just overkill. Also that damage nerf for the FEL-IX rifle was completely unnecessary, now there isn’t a single reason why you’d want to use that over the default rifle.

(Neo_TA) #8

to be honest i use the sniper 90% of the time adding weapon sway to zoomed scope isnt the answer to stop jump scoping add some spread in mid air while scoped to stop it

(Szakalot) #9

or jumping unscopes you: you can still try to scope-in and flick, immensely increasing the skill gap for this dirty trick

(Rémy Cabresin) #10

[QUOTE=Anti;526042]It was missed from the notes by mistake, we’ll be adding it in shortly.

The biggest thing we’re looking to control with the sway (and it is only sway that changed) is the amount of jump sniping.

This is a balance change that has been very much made as a test rather, than a solid direction change. We want to see what impact this change has and then come back to it. As people have said we’re looking for a way to reduce Vassili’s impact slightly but our preference is to avoid certain changes, especially the head shot gibs which we feel are pretty important for snipers to be effective against revives.[/QUOTE]

Give snipers back their non-sway, remove the one shot gib but allow them to gib with one shot to the body(right now its 1 hs or 2 bodies to gib?). Keeps the speed required from both snipers and medics up and both still have to be quick to either revive or gib. Make the jump shot about timing and more a skill shot rather than just an easy thing to do. Jump unscoped(if you jump while scoped it unscopes), scope in in air, at the ‘apex’ of the jump you have 90%+(high) accuracy so you have to time your shot with the apex of your jump. Keeps snipers mobile like they were, but puts the more emphasis on the timing element in the shots.

(LiNkzr) #11

Rather than making jump sniping harder by adding randomness, why not implement something that’s not totally random

I kinda understand what you want to try, but it’s not the right way to do it. I have to completely change my play-style when I play competitive, instead of being more mobile and harder to pin-down, i’m now a sitting duck for most classes. I would like something that adeto said though (not removing insta-gib, bye bye sniper for sure) but making it so that you have to be at highest point for it to be most accurate, that way it’s down to the skill and timing.

The problem for me isn’t even jump-shooting it’s the fact I cannot peek corners properly anymore that bothers me more, I don’t want to spend half of my game sitting at one point, even in other shooters you could be more aggressive with sniper that are slower paced.

Jump sniping while standing still is still as same at it was before, but when you try to move left-right it adds the absurd sway, same when being on the ground and moving left-right, which might have not been intended?

(LiNkzr) #12

oops double post…

(riptide) #13

I can say with 100% certainty that adding scope time is the WORST possible solution. It slows down sniping tremendously. Walking around scoped is not feasible for a game of this pace and camping an angle is no better. Besides people don’t need even more time to hit a sniper to ret knock them. If you want to nerf sniping decrease it’s RoF.

Sniping shouldn’t have randomness yet the very act of scoping moves your crosshair. Now you add sway? I don’t even… I’ll say this though, I’d rather deal with that bull**** randomness than increasing scope time.

I just wanted to add I jump shot with Arty all the time and that’s not nerfed, but it’s exactly the same concept

(INF3RN0) #14

I’d be interested to see how the felix played if each hit applied a speed debuff.

(PixelTwitch) #15

[QUOTE=riptide;526090]I can say with 100% certainty that adding scope time is the WORST possible solution. It slows down sniping tremendously. Walking around scoped is not feasible for a game of this pace and camping an angle is no better. Besides people don’t need even more time to hit a sniper to ret knock them. If you want to nerf sniping decrease it’s RoF.

Sniping shouldn’t have randomness yet the very act of scoping moves your crosshair. Now you add sway? I’ll say this though, I’d rather deal with that bull**** randomness than increasing scope time.

Also want to add I jump shot with Arty all the time and that’s not nerfed, but it’s exactly the same concept[/QUOTE]

I have to say I completely disagree with what you are saying.
The scope time now is practically instant and doubling that would have very little effect on the vast majority of shots. I actually believe as little as 30% added scope time would be needed to nerf jump sniping and force a slightly more defensive sniper role. Right now, its the close range aggressive sniping and jump shots that I believe that both the players and developers have issue with. The randomness of sway does very little to effect these styles but massively nerfs the style they claim to be ok with.

I also stick with my suggestion of reducing jump height while iooking down sights
.

(riptide) #16

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;526092]I have to say I completely disagree with what you are saying.
The scope time now is practically instant and doubling that would have very little effect on the vast majority of shots. I actually believe as little as 30% added scope time would be needed to nerf jump sniping and force a slightly more defensive sniper role. Right now, its the close range aggressive sniping and jump shots that I believe that both the players and developers have issue with. The randomness of sway does very little to effect these styles but massively nerfs the style they claim to be ok with.

I also stick with my suggestion of reducing jump height while iooking down sights
.[/QUOTE]

I guess we agree to disagree then. I’m not playing CS or Arma. If I was I would be able to hipfire and 1 shot them in cqc and zooming wouldn’t be random. I don’t want to play a slow playing class in a fast game, while also having the most ****ing handicaps because some randoms cry.

Those shots you mention are only possible as an aggressive sniper, which is the most useful sniper. It’s also the most fun and demanding. Slowing it down is flat out removing fun.

edit I actually do like the idea of nerfing the jumping height while ADS for ALL mercs though, not just sniping classes.

(tangoliber) #17

Snipers are always such a difficult thing to balance.

In the hands of a good player, I think Vasilli is easily the strongest merc. He is a game-changer.

In the hands of most players in pubs, especially myself, he is a liability. It’s like having one less player.

(LiNkzr) #18

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;526092]I have to say I completely disagree with what you are saying.
The scope time now is practically instant and doubling that would have very little effect on the vast majority of shots. I actually believe as little as 30% added scope time would be needed to nerf jump sniping and force a slightly more defensive sniper role. Right now, its the close range aggressive sniping and jump shots that I believe that both the players and developers have issue with. The randomness of sway does very little to effect these styles but massively nerfs the style they claim to be ok with.

I also stick with my suggestion of reducing jump height while iooking down sights
.[/QUOTE]

Why nerf aggressive sniping that much, most fun to do and most fun to probably watch, it’s not that easy anyways, I agree that jump sniping needs some kind of nerf but why force people to play a specific style?

(PixelTwitch) #19

I don’t feel that the nerf would be all that great. I spent a lot of time going over some videos of sniping pre and post patch. According to my sniper footage (that may not be representative of all styles), the nerf would not effect around 80% of shots made. The other 20% would be more up in the air to whether they would have been hits or not due to how quick the quick scope was and how high a jump snipe was.

I am not saying I agree with any sniper nerf, yet I am not saying I disagree either…

I am simply saying, its going to happen regardless so if I was to choose, I would rather be forced to try something different on them 20% of shots rather then have to play the whole merc slower and stuff in general.

(Anti) #20

Some good suggestions in this thread, thanks for the feedback. We’re definitely keeping an eye on this.