The Cold Hard Truth About Fraggers Nade...


(PixelTwitch) #1

If you have been around the forums for any length of time, you must have seen at least one thread proclaiming that Fraggers Nade is OP (Over Powered). Within that thread you find people that fall within one of two camps thrashing it out. One group are the people that believe the Nade is overpowered and simply needs a huge nerf and on the other side we have people that believe the Nade is fine in the grand scheme of things and should be left alone. Both can’t be right, can they? Well this is where it gets a little more complicated because in literal terms, no, the Nades are not overpowered. Fragger by his very design is supposed to be one of the heavy hitters and be topping the scoreboard in terms of kills and deaths. His punishment for this? Well, he cannot heal himself or his team, revive other players, do objectives quickly, highlight enemy players or provide ammo to himself and team members. Basically, beyond his lethality, he’s kinda useless…

So, we go by the numbers and accept that he is indeed balanced and get on with it, right? Not exactly… There is a new go to term in back seat game design called “Counter Play”. Really the words mean very little these days due to the way it has been milked dry by gamers who have very limited understanding of how it works. For those people here that have no idea what I am talking about, watch this -> HERE! In basic terms, counter play is the idea of designing mechanics that both add choices to players using a mechanic and the players on the receiving end of said mechanic. Fraggers Nades do this very poorly… At the moment, the outcome of a Nades overall effect on gameplay is too heavily dictated by the player throwing it. This may seem both obvious and the correct way of doing it and you would not be far wrong. For example, you look at your spawn timer, realise the enemy are about to spawn so you pull out your nade and start cooking. As soon as you hear the enemies footsteps from around a corner you peak out, let the nade fly and get a sexy triple kill. Sure, you earned them kills and it felt awesome to get them. However, it only felt awesome for you. Your team are likely bored and frustrated though the lack of action they are able to partake in and your enemies have just been killed with no opportunity to either fight back or realistically predict what was about to happen. So even though you have somewhat ruined the enjoyment for at least the 3 people you hit but likely more whom now have less chance of progressing or if on your team, less people to interact with, that does not mean what you just did is due to any imbalance in the game…

This is where what you as a player wants, really polarises you opinion on what is right for the game. For simplicities sake I am going to break it down into two camps. 1, the camp that believes in “Skilful Slaughter” and 2, the camp that wants “Skilful Domination”, and yes, I know both these names suck but its very late and I need sleep. Before going any further I want to make it clear that I come from the camp of “Skilful Domination”. So if you find my wording in the following biased, I do apologise.

In my eyes the camp of “Skilful Slaughter” are the people that generally are of a decent skill level and believe that fair is fair. They want to feel as powerful as possible, as often as possible and are willing to risk the same mechanics being used on themselves to achieve that. Also, extremely casual players and some of the more old school players are more willing to take on this mindset, be it for widely varying reasons. The casual players simply accept it blind with the attitude of “well this is part of the game”. On the other hand the more old school players have likely become more accustomed to this form of game design over the years due to how games were in the past. These players pride themselves on a very high skill ceiling

The camp that push for “Skilful Domination” more so believe in a few design pillars like the mythical counter play, wide skill sets catered for and tactical depth being more aligned when it comes to value with individual skill levels. Based on the popularity of games like LoL, Dota 2, Starcraft and Counter Strike, I would have to say the players that generally fall into this camp are the hardcore/avid gamers. These players are generally of a medium to high skill level and receive less support from the extremely casual due to games balanced around skilful domination generally having a much steeper learning curve that less experienced gamers can find daunting

Let me say one more time, neither camp is wrong or right in terms of their ideas and beliefs. The real question is, what camp does Splash Damage intend for Dirty Bomb to fall into? In the past it looked like skilful domination was going to be the target, however that all changed around a patch we received just before the NDA lifted. The information on what that patch changed is available over on the Splash Damage forums and I urge you to check it out if you have time. It was called “The Darwinian Update”. To cut a long story short, many of the abilities in the game received fairly substantial buffs that changed the whole feel of the game drastically and we saw individual mastery become the name of the game. Honestly, some things improved massively and I was really happy. However, the side effect of this was abilities that skated that line between tools of domination and skills of slaughter, became much simpler then many of us expected. This is around the time the questions about Fraggers Nade, Air strikes, Healing Stations and much more became hot topics of contempt for the community.

How would I like the nades to act? Well, one of the things you often hear is that if you take away their killing potential and gibbing they and by extension Fragger become underpowered. This is true. In order to keep Fragger and his nades balanced while adding that domination type feel would be by changing other aspects that would indeed support and promote counter play. Currently I believe the best way to do this would be by drastically increasing the AoE of the nade (by around 100%), doing 2x more damage to deployable objects and downed players to compensate for much less damage vs players and implementing the cancel cooldown punishment that Splash Damage recently mentioned on a livestream. Also working towards better telegraphs that a nade could be incoming soon would go some way to improving the feel for me personally. How this would change the game is simple, Fragger would use the nades, as he does now but with more of an ability to take out static defences. The wider explosion range and lower damage means that the Fragger would be required to manually kill players after the nade had been thrown if the enemy players were on max health (unless Aura, Proxy or Sawbones who would likely have died instantly when the nade explodes within a decent amount of range). This would entice more teamwork with players willing to trust in the nade and follow it into hot zones to help clean up any remaining enemies. This would feel better for them players on your team instead of just taking everything for yourself. Due to the increased blast radius there is also a chance you could effectively kill more people then you would in the current system. When it comes to the players the nade was used on, rather than dying instantly, they have choices.

They can…

[ul]
[li]Fortify the position and prepare for a fight. [/li][li]Start spamming out revives. [/li][li]heals and ammo for a fight. [/li][li]Push out of the area towards or away from the person that threw it. [/li][li]Block off the entrance with certain abilities to buy time.[/li][/ul]

Simply, rather then instantly dying they have the chance of turning around a situation that previously, would have resulted in a chunk of players being cleaned up instantly with the nade and the people that survived being heavily out numbered with only their own abilities to try and recoup. I honestly see this as the better way of doing things and what I have always hoped for in Dirty Bomb since I gained access. The reason why I have become so frustrated is not due to missing features, business model or things like that, it is simply that this game is heading in a direction that does not interest me personally. Normally that would be fine, I would have simply avoided it. However, I have been here when it seemed to be heading in a direction that I did like…

Basically, as simple as Fraggers nade really is, it has become a beacon to where we can expect future development and mechanics to be headed. A few number values over the next few weeks are going to dictate whether this is going to be a game I stick with as my “main” or if its going to be my bit of brain dead fun. Again, I personally came here for complexity and depth, something that is only really found in Counter Strike when it comes to First Person Shooters (When I say “only” I mean it as in only game with a decent following and potential). However, CS:GO does not really appeal to me when it comes to its pacing and core skill requirement. I already have plenty of fun brain dead shooters like Battlefield, Call of Duty and Black Light Retribution.

Unfortunately, I have a strong feeling this one is going to fall on the wrong side of the fence for me.
TLDR: Fraggers nade is really not OP, just designed in a way that gives very little counter play. This results in the perceived balance being very different from the balance in practice. How you feel about this in particular is likely to effect how you feel about the game in future. Right now it looks like the game is designed completely for “skill” and is void of depth and complexity because of it. I worry for the future of DB due to games like Battlefield, Call of Duty and other being in decline on the PC and following the same overarching design. Whereas games like LoL, Dota, Starcraft, Counter Strike and more are showing a GROWING trend towards more complexity in games that allows mastery from both raw skill and amazing tactics. The future of the nade is likely going to be the beacon that lights the path of future development, so if your not a fan of where it goes design wise in the coming weeks, don’t expect future mechanics and abilities to be much different to the nades final implementation. Will instant death and no chance for counter play be the soup of the day? I don’t know… but I hope not…


(Glottis-3D) #2

Most viable counterplay for nades is Dodge.
Lower speed travel and that will appear.

as for Radius vs Damage trade, i would like nades to stay more or less precise weapon.
The higher radius - the lower skill required to deal damage.
not againts playing around and tweaking those to find the best radius/damage ratio


(Szakalot) #3

Good post and its nice of you to try and make sense of what the ‘its fine’ camp is saying but the nades are simply OP and end of story : )

Increasing AoE by 100% is too much imo, the AoE is already pretty large, you’d basically nuke an entire floor with a nade.

I’ve been fragging (read: using fragger) last few days and i’m always SURPRISED when i don’t get a kill after throwing the nade at a visible enemy. Nade speed would be the key change imo, and I know I’m pushing for it but lets look at ET and QW:

Nade damage was pretty good in W:ET. You’d have to eat it to get gibbed, otherwise your body will fly, but if you strafe-jump away from the explosion you might even survive. Nades are super spammy in QW, and with the stuttering netcode as it is, nades would always be the preferable way to engage people. even in QWpro that brought weapon accuracy closer to ET levels, nades would still rain supreme, and were almost always used as opening frags.

One way to asses nade speed is by considering the cooking time - seconds to explosion - you need to throw a nade so that it explodes in the enemy’s face.
In W:ET & QW nade cooking was 5 seconds long:

  • very very long distance 2-2.5 seconds
  • mid range 3-3.5 seconds
  • close range 4 seconds
  • point blank: 4.5 seconds

In QW it was much simpler, even though engaging distance could be considerably longer due to throwing distance:

  • longest range at 2.5-3 seconds
  • mid range at 3.5 - 4 seconds
  • close range at 4.5, point blank even closer.

In Dirty Bomb cooking time is one second shorter (4 seconds) so just remove 1 sec from the previous calculation:

  • longest range at 1-1.5 sec (i’m talking long-jump throw range)
  • long range at 2 sec
  • everything else at 3 seconds
  • point blank at 3.5 if you really want it

90% I’m cooking a nade I just throw at 3 seconds. There is very little consideration of how far the enemy is, and which direction they are headed. The fact that its so easy to get kills by cooking for 3 seconds regardless of these distance nuances is further evidence of how ridiculously easy it is to get frags.

They took QW nades - designed to engage moving vehicles at distances - buffed their damage a bit; made them more capable of gibbing, and they’ve put it in ET sized maps.

The thing about nades that ECHO data might not be so keen to pick up is that they are extremely easy to use as opening frags. Esp. in scrims where people can spot for you, and you can expect to have a much better idea of where the enemy is, peeking&nading is very easy.

Sure, plenty of nades will be thrown as area denial, without even the intention of killing. Sure some nades will miss. But that one nade that effortlessly blew up a flank on the opponent is only comparable to instagib sniper headshots - which has a lot of other drawbacks as snipers are situational. Fragger blows everything up and takes a walk around with his MG, which, even if nerfed, will still be a powerhouse.


(DarkangelUK) #4

Is there a TLDR for the TLDR?


(Humbugsen) #5

3 possibilities to fix the grenades:

  • Remove cooking (boring fix) grenades won’t kill anything. only used for area denial and healing stations, turrets etc.
  • Lower damage (easy fix) will make it more like CS grenades, finisher or opener tool
  • Lower travelspeed (best fix) can still get kills but needs more skill and allows you to dodge it if you see the fragger, pretty much like an airstrike

the game relies most on gunplay, but not for fragger… obviously broken

one thing that happened to me several times:
i meet a fragger in an open field ( no chance to take cover)
he starts cooking a grenade, i give him 6 headshots
and i’m dead and he survives with 10% hp
WTF?
If fragger decides to cook a grenade in a gunfight without cover, you should be able to kill him. like in ET and every other game that has grenades


(shibbyuk) #6

Hard to argue with this passionate argument. A faster blast damage fall-off would sort things out (is it linear at the moment?) meaning near-direct hits could still kill and the overall radius could be tweaked.


(Neo_TA) #7

i dont even know why this post is even here as the dev’s said yesterday that fragger has changed in the next patch so what is done is done already and i dont think none of u understand its not just his nades are op its his body shots from range are extremely strong.


(Glottis-3D) #8

well, i guess this post is here, because its Pixel’s opinion, and its a forum?
=)


(Humbugsen) #9

they said there will be a penalty(cooldown) for cancelling cooking, and that his gun was nerfed.
good start but this will still happen:

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525878]
one thing that happened to me several times:
i meet a fragger in an open field ( no chance to take cover)
he starts cooking a grenade, i give him 6 headshots
and i’m dead and he survives with 10% hp
WTF?
If fragger decides to cook a grenade in a gunfight without cover, you should be able to kill him. like in ET and every other game that has grenades[/QUOTE]


(Neo_TA) #10

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525887]they said there will be a penalty(cooldown) for cancelling cooking, and that his gun was nerfed.
good start but this will still happen:

[/QUOTE]

that his ability tho to be a heavy class aka tank and with 150hp u need to attack from a far or go sneaky peaky behind him and get in afew shots before he turns around or take him on with a medic :eek:


(Humbugsen) #11

ehm?
in an organzied comp match you won’t be able to get behind him.
and he has medics too.
will there be any comp team without fragger? nope. —> OP


(prophett) #12

Removing the ability to prime would end up in a lot of wasted nades (8{


(Neo_TA) #13

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525890]ehm?
in an organzied comp match you won’t be able to get behind him.
and he has medics too.
will there be any comp team without fragger? nope. —> OP[/QUOTE]

theres always ways around it… eg you take the sniper guy then take out the medic 1st normally 1shot in body they die without medic he open to being attacked also if youre in a competitive match youll have your team backing you up also so meh


(Violator) #14

There is the ‘throw it back’ loadout perk but this is not easy to pull off :). It is one of the few counters to the entire team huddling around the invulnerability station (though the station is hopefully getting a nerf next patch as regards when it kicks in).


(spookify) #15

Nades are fine… What is the big deal… Good players with nades are going to kill you…

Also in pubs I am physically going to nade people like you (Pixel) (Prophett) (Inferno) (All SD members) out of spawns because you are probably one of the better players on the team. So not only are you being naded you are being specifically targeted, which is part of the game.

Side Note:
Get out of the 8v8 obj servers and into more 5v5 SW MM que’s! I played a 5v5 Match last night and each team had 2 fraggers, nades were not an issue…


(Zenity) #16

Shoe kept saying “a lot is going on with fragger” so let’s see. It seems clear that cancelling nades will be removed and his gun will be tweaked, but maybe that’s not even all.

While I get what you are saying about counterplay, I think it would be too much to expect that every ability has perfect counterplay. That would be limiting their design choices and not necessarily be healthy for the game. Like you pointed out, there are different types of players, and it’s not impossible to please them all to some extend.

The most important bit is that strategies that offer little to no counterplay are not the dominant strategies. If Fragger is put in line, you’ll still die occasionally from a lucky grenade (“skilled” grenades can be countered to some extend with skillful navigation), but that’s not necessarily worse than being taken out by a sniper from an angle you couldn’t possibly predict.

Sometimes we just have to take the hit, for the entertainment of the other player… The important bit is that these situations are exceptional and when they go out of hand, they need to be toned down one way or another.

Game design is hard, and even Extra Credits is not the holy grail of game design wisdom. There are always many angles to every design question (e.g. the “balancing for skill” aspect, which is also nicely explained by EC). In the end you have to see what feels right, so let’s see how Fragger feels after the patch in a few moments and then go from there.


(BalloO) #17

Hello, first post just to add a little contribution.

Make the cooking time longer and dont allow cancel by switching, slow the travel time a bit and nades will be perfectly fine (who said like ET?).

btw sorry for my poor english


(Violator) #18

Cancelling nades isn’t being removed (well I hope not) but you will now get a cooldown penalty as a result of cancelling, which seems fair.


(Szakalot) #19

meh, the thing about not being able to cancel the nade is that as soon as you see the fragger pulling one out you can run for it. 50% cooldown penalty isn’t such a huge deal, its welcome; but it wont limit spammines.


(tangoliber) #20

I think that grenade icon on opponents screen could change color as it gets closer to explosion. (Transition from yellow to orange to red.)
Once Fragger pulls it out, the icon could show up (through walls). That would allow anyone looking in the direction to get out of the way.

Or maybe he could scream “Grenade!” really loud like an idiot whenever he pulls one out, so the opposing team can run.

We could also drastically reduce killing power, but in return, allow Fragger to grenade jump over walls. :slight_smile:
Could be used in coordination with teammates as well. Fragger tosses the grenade by the wall, and Proxy uses the blast to launch over and stealth plant. Lights travel more distance in air than mediums and heavies.