OK i had enough. I want to see racional arguments on why fragger wasnt nerfed by now.


(ragnak) #1

First i will just copy my comment from reddit, im already tired of writing the same thing over and over again:

Let’s be fair here, if they dont see an issue with fragger/aura then this game have no future.

Now before people start to eat me up for that statement, let me explain:

While there are people that enjoy paper/scissors/rock balance in games, its not exactly the best way to go in an fps game (+ the only soft counter for fragger is vassili and he better be good). Now we have the situtation where as a sawbones/bushwhacker/skyhammer (mostly, as you cant destroy the station with 1 nadestrike)/arty have no means do deal with aura, at all (sure, headshots, but aura can land headshots as well while being constantly healed).

The only merc that can deal with aura is fragger (i will ignore proxy mines as its not always possible), sure there will be more but some mercs will still be powerless against aura, its simply not fun as the only thing you can do is wait for someone who can deal with the station and to expect teamplay on public servers is a bit insane.

Now lets go back to fragger. So, his mg have the highest damage from every automatic gun in the game, is easy to control and have the biggest magazine, there is literally no reason to use any other weapon that is avaible to him, which already points to the problem. Normally i would be fine with 150hp merc that is slow, but now we are reaching another problem. While he is slow, his head model isnt any bigger than the rest (at least as far as i can tell), his backpack blocks head vision from the back which makes it harder to have a decent jump on him but obviously thats not all.

In most games you would probably want to “poke” hard hitting slow characters, this makes sense as faster characters can abuse cover play a lot better but here we have a fragger that not only have nade, he have 2 of them.

So, assuming that both of you have the same skill what can you exactly do ?

  1. rush in and try to take him down but you are already most likely to lose as he have more health and a gun with better damage. Sure you can win, but its unlikely. Getting MG in line with others weapons would be a decent start to help with this problem.
  1. Try to poke him, which is a huge risk because of grenades. You could wait for him to throw 1 but then what, you wait for another ? You cant tell how many nades he have or when his cd will end. Normally i would rush someone who “cook” the nade, but fragger cook it so fast that its really hard to kill him before he throw it because he have 150 hp and he can jump/double jump or do any other silly movement while doing so without any drawbacks.

Then we have another problem, even if you attack him in open space (say, he started to cook the nade behind the box somewhere in open space and you took the risk) where you can “juke” him so he miss his grenade is also unlikely. His grenades moves at supersonic speed and are really hard to spot.

  1. You change route, if you can. Obvious thing here is that there can be more then 1 fragger, which only escalate the problem.

Another problem is that he synergise better with medic’s (not only with aura, which is an even bigger problem, or probably the biggest problem of the game currently)because of his high hp. So you did land 4 headshots, almost killed him, which is all meaningless when he can be brought up to full hp in like 2 sec from a medpack. Other mercs can be healed as well BUT you lose less ammo on them, you dont need to reload as often and they are easier to burst if they make an mistake.

The most optimal teams should probably run as many fraggers as possible, while aura+fragger pair is mandatory. If you dont need an engineer you should always take another fragger, if you dont need an fieldops you will take another fragger. Most teams would probably run 3xfragger + aura + sawbones (enemy team is full of fraggers so aura isnt THAT much of a problem, sawbones is a safer bet in such situtation) if they dont need specialised mercs.

The worse thing about this situtation is that its pretty easy to fix without ruining both fragger and aura (and the fact that fragger do LOOK like a pay2win scheme, which i can belive wasnt the intention). While aura station is pretty tricky to make right (there was a ton of good ideas how to make her less absurdal against some mercs, and making her station easier to destroy isnt one of them as it doesnt solve the problem), its still only an ability, aura herself isnt broken. Even making it heal for 50% for 1 sec after taking damage would solve the problem and i dont think it would ruin her as you could simply hide for one second, this shouldnt be a rambo tool anyway.

Fragger on the other hand needs more fixes, but those are less risky. Obviously making MG harder to control by more recoil or simply nerfing damage so its more of a suppresion device (we might as well bump his magazine size if needed) and less of the best gun at everything would solve his gun problems (and gave you a reason to use assault rifles over it). Grenades obviously can be “cooked” too fast, adding 1 more “finger” would probably solve the problem here, giving you counter play while keeping fragger nades strong (because it should be used for clearing rooms, not to win duels) AND they should fly slower, its really insane at the moment. Making them fly slower would increase skill cap and solve the problem of grenades being strong at pretty long range (its a grenade, not a rocket launcher) + it would be easier to spot them, its really hard when they move at supersonic speed. I expect that this would be enough to get fragger in line with other mercs, if it wasnt -10hp wouldnt hurt him a lot.

The best part about this ? Its a f2p game, they should update it constantly if they want to swim SO if the nerfs would prove to be too much OR if there was enough mercs that would counter him (im against counters but lets just use it for an arguement) THEN we could simply buff him. Is it really necessery to keep him this strong when there are an ocean of salty tears ? Wouldnt it be healthier for the game to nerf him and aura for now and just watch what happens ? Nothing is set in stone and those mercs generate a lot of frustration, telling people to deal with it untill there are more counters isnt the best way to go around it.

Some people might not cosider those mercs to be a major problem that would affect a future of the game, but in my opinion if you leave a problem for a long time you will get burned. I and probably many others dont want to wait for months for balance patches, there is enough f2p games that do this thing weekly/bi-weekly, you either act fast or you lose players, especially when the only counter to fragger is another fragger -_- (given the same skill level).

This comment is probably slightly too long, but oh well, no TL:DR.

I honestly feel powerless against fraggers, having better gun, more hp and ability that is insanly easy to use that terrorize me all the ****ing time is simply too much to enjoy the game. I cant even focus on the game when i need to watch for fraggers all the time because he doesnt offer any counter play whatsoever.

I hate healing station, i find it overpowered but at least it can be countered (mostly by fragger, for now -_-), but fragger is a god mode and im not the only one thinking this way.

Do i really expect too much when asking for some rational post from someone from SD ? No i dont want to hear “but echo doesnt show it !”. I want to hear rational counter arguments and im yet to see one.

I am sorry but i had to vent this, but i honestly hope that this is going to change before we get another free rotation with fragger =/.


(LiNkzr) #2

He’s being nerfed next patch, they said it on SplashDamage stream, don’t know what exactly.


(titan) #3

They can explain why fragger hasn’t been nerfed but it definitely won’t be rational :smiley:


(ragnak) #4

You sure about it ? Last time i heard anything about the subject from SD it was along “but echo overlord told us not to” line.

lol :smiley: also, i cant edit the title so it will stay racional, fml.


(LiNkzr) #5

Yeah I’m pretty sure, unless Anti lied to me :frowning: I didn’t gyazo or anything though


(Humbugsen) #6

Fragger needs minus 10-20 Hp in my opinion, his backpack already protects his head.
Grenades should either do lower damage or must be counterable. Shooting a grenade while being cooked would be great. And/Or shooting the grenade while flying (but needs lower flyspeed then).

Also agree that rock/paper/scissors is no fun in a FPS game. Maybe in competitive but for sure not in casual mode. It especially doesn’t make sense if you can switch your merc after every death.


(Szakalot) #7

HP is the smallest concern imo. Slow character with a ‘slayer’ format is fine with a lot of HP. We just need to nerf the slaying potential, which at the moment is too high, and remains too high at all skill levels.


(Protekt1) #8

Why hasn’t Fragger been nerfed? They are clearly not finished balance. Rational enough?


(ragnak) #9

“…wasnt nerfed by now” Fragger didnt get overpowered 1 or 2 weeks ago, he is a problem for months now. You might enjoy unbalanced games but for me and my friends things like fragger drain any fun from this game. Balance changes should happen fast, especially that its a beta, even if they did overnerf him then they could simply buff it later.

As a side note, last time when i heard anything about fragger from SD, i did not seen “we are working on bringing him more in line with other mercs, be patiance” instead i heard that echo tell them that there is no problem with fragger, so yea.


(Protekt1) #10

Because they haven’t finished balancing. This means he likely will, and apparently is, being nerfed in the future. I also think that you’re a bit overstating his strength a bit since I personally don’t have a huge problem with his killing power. I think if they want to balance some weapons they need to make them harder to use, not just reduce their killing strength. That said, it is only a matter of time til they tweak him and has always been.

They’ve stated in the past that the majority of balancing would occur in small tweaks once the game goes live (likely in open beta the most tweaks) when they have the most feedback to work with. You asked for a rational reason why things aren’t happening, the truth turns out to be they just aren’t happening on your personal timeline.


(ragnak) #11

A lot of good players agree that fragger nerf should happend long ago (at least to his nades) and there was no real indication that they are working on him because echo do not show it to them. If they made a thread with balance issues they are working on i wouldnt be this frustrated but that didnt happend as well.

I might be more annoyed by balance issues than you and thats ok but for me fragger is overpowered for way too long and not doing anything with him for such a long time isnt rational. You are free to disagree and just leave it at that.


(Runeforce) #12

I just popped in to mention how horrendous underpowered Sawbonez is agian. :armadillochase:


(BioSnark) #13

Here’s a rational argument. Deployables are unfun. Fragger needs to be op to be popular and counter 'em. It doesn’t make deployables fun or fragger not op but a counter’s a counter.


(Bloodbite) #14
  1. Because BETA

  2. I’m sorry, did I miss something? I thought we were still in Close Beta… and I’ll admit I have no interest in things like Reddit… but doesn’t this kind of detail being spewed out into a well renowned place for volatile trolling like Reddit cross the lines of the NDA for starters? And why would it seem rational to post a detailed list of problems/issues/opinions in a place other than the developer’s own forum while they’re (we hope) spending all their time focused on building/fixing/tweaking the game?

Unless… perhaps we have stumbled across why so many AAA games are unfinished and delayed monstrosities… their developers spend too much time trolling social media forums for the vainglorious mention of them and their products in someone’s text… oh the life of an EA developer… an Ubisoft developer… an Activi… wait… Splash used to play in the Activision pool.

Hmmm… rationale identified !!!


(BAMFana) #15

I think the basic killing potential of Fragger is fine – as a pure combat merc he should outclass mercs with uility functions. The problem lies with his grenades, or more precisely the near-unavoidable nature of them in capable hands. As long as the player knows how to use grenades effectively, you will die and get gibbed every time. It’s comparable to playing against a very good sniper, but worse in the sense that grenades are AoE and thus can have a much greater immediate effect on multiple players.

Nerfing Fragger’s other stats (for example hp, the k-121 gun, speed) will still leave grenades frustrating to play against. Rumor on the street is that SD are considering making it impossible to abort cooking/throwing nades (once you start cooking/throwing the nade, it will explode when the timer hits zero regardless of what you do – it will explode even if you switch weapons). This will certainly reduce the issue, but I don’t think it will be enough to solve it, and it’s counter-intuitive to players who are used to being able to un-cook nades in most other fps games. Personally I would rather see cooking removed or restricted (for example, one could make the minimum timer 1s regardless of how long the grenade is cooked) or a reduction of damage and/or AoE.


(ragnak) #16

[QUOTE=Bloodbite;525436]
-snip-[/QUOTE]

  1. Even more of a reason to fix things faster, especially that its MONTHS old issue.

  2. I had a few post about the subject at this forum AND nexon forum, i copied reddit comment because it was the last one i wrote and it was easy to find. The game isnt under NDA anymore and i did not write anything about the things that were under NDA. They should have discussions about things like aura station or fragger, because its an obvious problem for a lot of people. Being transparent about balance changes is a good thing.

If there is a long lasting issue i expect developers to cover it, especially when under “shaped by gamers” tag. To be fair i should probably ignore your post as it doesnt add anything to the discussion aside from “but its a beta” and tons of unrelated things.

There is no reason to use m4 or br16 over k-121 so nerfs needs to happen. It have better damage, bigger magazine, less damage drop off and isnt any harder to control, thats not okay.


(kyuto9) #17

I’m probly not helping a lot here really but i do think about something : in such games, with preset characters, they must have both pro and cons depending on their purpose, always. That said, what is fragger used for : dealing heavy damage with either his machinegun either his nades. He’s a wall and a pusher also. It’s an assault guy, he can take damage and give hell. It sounds all fine to me for Pros. But we are still waiting the Cons…
I wouldn’t mind his firepower only if he was the slowest guy in the game. Strong but slow is the idea. It’s quite the same with Planetside 2 Xam class or the TF2 Heavy. That is ONE solution. His weapon could also use a longer reload time.
Fragger hp/dmg could be nerfed, but it’s like losing his purpose of opposing heavy resistance/assault. I sure hate facing him as much as many players here, but I would not get him back to other average characters specs as he is one of the fewest contrasting dude in the cast (proxy being another).


(Nail) #18

rational argument

they don’t wanna


(Zenity) #19

Well he’s called Fragger though, not Tanker. Of all the possible nerfs, I think I would also prefer an HP reduction.

Perhaps -10 HP to himself and grenade damage to match, and no uncooking of grenades (it could just throw the grenade if you switch weapons).

Anyways, I am sure SD already has a plan for the next patch so let’s see how that goes.


(Nail) #20

I’m against cancelling cooking without a time penalty at the least, you should have to throw it or eat it