Closed Beta impression from a competitive view


(fubar) #1

Gameplay related suggestions/recommendations/urgently needed fixes. I try to stay away as far as I can from merc balance, as I believe this is going to be an ever on-going thing depending on the game’s meta and newer released mercs. You will never find the right balance, something or the other will always be better than the next.
Do note that these are my opinions towards the COMPETITIVE aspect of the game. I have no interest in casual or for that matter even your very own “ranked match making”, these are not competitive to me in any sense or style.

Spawntime Synchronization:
As of right now the spawntimes are perfectly synchronized between both teams, which is… horrible, I reckon ECHO should show enough data to prove this accusation without having to go further into detail.
Another related concern, please do force the spawning in competitive games at least. Being able to delay your own spawn by seconds is unneeded and misleading, what do we even have waves for when people are allowed to spawn at any given time? We already have spawnshields.
We WANT spawnkills in competitive games, I get that this feature is very beneficial to public games, but for the sake of competition we need forced waves rather than… a guideline as to when someone can respawn.

Selfkill delay:
The delay on your selfkill is atrocious. You’re required to selfkill up to 2 or 3 seconds before your own spawn if you want to make it into the next wave.
We should be able to use as much time as possible without having to be penalized for selfkilling a second or even half before the spawn only to miss it and end up being full, the timer is there for a reason, if I die before it resets to 24 or 0 I shouldn’t be put into a later wave, this whole system seems to contradict with itself.

Instant gib snipers:
Snipers are too strong. Either the instant gib needs to be removed or a penalty to movement while shooting (strafing/jumping) is absolutely necessary. Essentially, vasilli is… a Railgun with an instagib on headshot. Way too broken for the pace of the game. I get that you’re trying to make him as viable as possible, but he… just wont ever be. There will always be a map or a specific stage one can be useful in, even without the instagib. It is way too easy to hit, without any penalties, for it to be justified that you instagib a person. This breaks gameplay way too much.

Separation of sounds, voice chat, announcer, cutscenes etc.:
The Dialogue volume slider bundles all of these, I’d much like to be able to turn off the in-game chat sounds as well as cutscenes and the frequent, unnecessary yelling of my character without being penalized at the loss of important objective announcers.

Hit sounds more distinguishable (louder?):
Perhaps a slider? I feel like the hitsounds aren’t loud enough, others want them lower, some are happy with the current state. I see no issue with adding an option to its volume.

Separation of loadouts, augments vs weapons vs cosmetic:
Competitively speaking, this game will never have a future if you’re sticking to your current system. A requirement to have grinded the game, traded and bought cards and what not to find a valid augment setup, IN COMPETITION, will never be accepted.
For the sake of your business model: Separate augments from weapons. Weapons will be wanted, needed and even required. Give the players a free choice to the weapons each merc can use. This way, certain mercs will remain balanced and not be entirely worthless in a competitive environment. Shotguns? No one will ever use shotguns.
Cosmetic vs Augments, again… a separation, keep the skins away from the perks, skins are your money makers. Look at CS:GO’s weapon skins, or LoL’s… or Dota’s… Absolutely no impact whatsoever on the game, no character changes, buffs, perks or any other stats that would gain a person any sort of advantage over the other, yet all 3 games run entirely on the revenue generated of such.
Hell, augments could be argued to be completely removed from the game even. All you need are skins, but even so, bundling the two together, you will never see either in competitive play or have any promotion of such from streamers/pro players.
Or delve into the other countless of suggestions offered on this topic already: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/43284-Pixels-Opinion-On-The-Whole-Loadout-Card-Monetisation-quot-Stuff-quot

ZoomFov and Sensitivity:
Self explanatory. Either keep a 1:1 Sensitivity for scopes or give us an option for such. FOV can be argued an intended feature, I leave this up to you. The sensitivity however is an absolute must.

Viewmodel aka drawgun:
Any possibility at all to be granted a feature that removes the gun and hand models from your screen entirely? They take up way too much screen space, block important information and are otherwise just utterly obnoxious and intrusive.

Spawnshield and Reviveshield:
I’m all for having the shields, love them in-fact. But please make them a fixed value rather than a dependable. Freeze a player on revive if needed even, but losing the shield upon performing an action is silly. Especially so in Spawnshields. You want to avoid spawnrape? Don’t take away their shields by them performing an action. Leave them on for the entire duration.

Less linear maptype models, more objectives:
Select-able spawns/multiple spawns should be a thing. It’s not a very friendly concept to master for new players, I guess, but if even Battlefield can get away with it, so can you.
Right now there’s no real benefit to them given the maps we have access to and that’s alright, but… sooner or later, I’m willing to bet that maybe, at most, only one or two of your original maps will ever be adapted into competitive play because community designed maps are more viable, or faster paced, or better suited, or for whatever else reason.
It’ll happen and there’s no reason to be delusional about it. Giving those map creators, at the very least, the option to tinker with capture-able spawns, be it in the form of flags, command posts, building some random structure, whatever, can lead to meta changing gameplay - which is exactly what we’re aiming for, right? Keep things interesting, switch around in meta, etc.?
I don’t see this happening on your type of maps. They’re too forced, nothing else to do other than be forcefully pushed into “DO THIS OBJECTIVE, NOW THIS, NOW THIS, FOLLOW THIS PATTERN. NOTHING ELSE.” Where are the different attack routes, where are the primary objective independent side objectives?
Or… even now, losing a stage and having been forcefully spawned onto it, by… yet again, random chance and the inability of selecting a spawn could potentially lose you the entire map, merely by having been in the wrong place at the wrong time and it was impossible for you to avoid a full spawn.
Give us the option for selectable spawns, avoid this. People aware of the map and what’s happening can use this to their advantage and set up a defense or even an attack if the map routes allow for such, on later objectives. It opens a whole new world for map designers and gameplay.

Gun sentries and health stations blocking explosive damage:
Intention or bug?
Sentries and healing stations, both, soak up any and all damage from nades. A player sitting right behind a sentry, will very likely not get damaged. Where as if the sentry was another player, both would have died from that specific grenade.

Fragger nades, bugged?:
As of the last patch Fragger nades VERY frequently tend to explode in your hands after being cooked for 1 tick/second or alternatively, not explode at all. Also I have a theory that when a player steps on top of a cooked nade, it very often behaves as an airstrike and results in being “cancelled” out?

Stopwatch system:
A team should NEVER win a map merely by having acquired one more objective than the other. I get that your maps may be too big, or too long lasting, but that’s a design flaw, not a gametype flaw. Look at your map designs if you want to force shorter rounds, especially if you want to avoid double-full hold scenarios.
Having a team declared winner merely because they got one more side objective than the other, but ultimately would have lost just the same… Seems utterly idiotic to me. They didn’t finish the map, they didn’t set a time, they never completed the PRIMARY objective required to win the game… they merely got one more necessary side objective out of the way that opens the path to, whatever it is we’re here for.
Again, this is nothing but a map design flaw, if you don’t want your maps to take up to 15 or 20 minutes for a single round, don’t tamper with the gamemode, shorten your objectives.
Especially given the amount of random factors no one can even account for, many of the defenses in this game, as they do in ET and RtCW are entirely spawntime dependent, if you have a favorable spawn, defending objective X may be a lot easier and quite plausible to fullhold rather than objective Y, and vice versa. Which will very often result in a stage being lost within seconds if not the first 2 minutes of the game, but later stages held at ease. Should the attacking team have won at this point just because they got to build a, not game necessary side objective such as the command post, while we still would have ended up winning the game by holding them from getting to the primary objective and effectively shutting down any and all of their pushes? Hell no.
Stages should NEVER declare a winner. There’s too much random stuff going on in a game, that is not in the player’s control and is nothing but a roll of the dice. We have multiple stages for a reason, a defense does not get broken up until the point where the attacking team has been declared winner for having completed the ENTIRE map objective.
I get that this may very well be favorable to public matches, might even be an excellent idea. But it has absolutely no place in Stopwatch and competitive play.

Netcode/Antilag:
It feels way too favouring. I don’t mind the antilag, I benefit from it even - considering I’ve had a horrendous ISP for years and average 70-100ping on the majority of EU servers, but the amounts of times I end up dying 20 meters behind cover or having traded kills with another person is more than upsetting. On a good day, with 60 or even less ping, the game still feels like I was playing on USWest averaging 200+.

Falloff damage on Gibbing:
Feels unrewarding, especially as a SMG to have to shoot up to 20-30 bullets into an already dead player just to gib. The fall off damage, on gibs, should not be applied. A static amount of bullets (ie 8 for body shots, 3 for headshots) seems the most logical for gibbing.

Video cut scenes:
Please. Please don’t make me watch them anymore. I beg you :frowning:

Accessibility to seeing opponent team classes:
I should not ever be able to see my opponents team’s selected merc by a simple press of TAB. I can understand wanting to see the loadout POSSIBILITIES the opponent has, but not the currently selected merc. This is similar to the spawntimes, too much information is being handed out for free.

Rotation of airstrikes:
Any possibility of being able to rotate/steer airstrikes in the near future? You kept similar in the way ET/RtCW handles, by striking in a 90° angle from the originating point, but left out the ability to rotate the airstrike by switching one’s position before it’s being fully executed or called in. Would be great to have but otherwise not too crucial.

Remove cancellation of abilities (ie nades/airstrikes):
Being able to cook a nade or anything else and having it cancelled and preserved with a single weaponbank switch is silly. If a Fragger starts cooking a nade, make him use it. Don’t allow him to just switch guns and cancel it out. This applies to every ability really.

Empty/Local servers, possibly Binaries release even? /switchlevel method not sufficient

Friendly Fire…

Unit collision…

Grenade travel speed and AoE:
I’m all for grenades, love and abuse 'em, but it’s becoming increasingly difficult to dodge even if you see the opposing fragger throwing it. The grenades travel too fast for you to really do anything about it, you’re basically left with nothing to do but stand still and hope he misses. Increase the flight duration a little, will keep the desired affect and you may just receive less complains about fragger’s OP’ness.
As for the AoE, it seems random, I use a fragger with M4 and Explodydendron, but I genuinely can’t judge the splash, at times it’ll kill a person half a mile from it, other times it barely even damages a merc when being hit in the face by one. A little more consistency would be great, perhaps even a slight reduction in landmines/healing stations/etc being detonated by a grenade landing nearby.

MG Mechanics(?):
Consistency issue, again. Shooting a player in an MG nest is hit or miss, there seems to be an invisible wall that more often than not soaks up any and all of your bullets, at times they can’t be hit at all, at others, using the same positioning, angle and weapons, they go down instantly.


(Glottis-3D) #2

all great points!

my main concerns are:

Stopwatch system:
Less linear maptype models, more objectives:
ZoomFov and Sensitivity:
Selfkill delay:
Falloff damage on Gibbing:


(POKEMANS) #3

All very good points. I don’t fully agree with some of the reasoning but the core points are all sounds and should be reflected upon.


(prophett) #4

Would love to see this implemented.


(Szakalot) #5

Good post, dont agree with everything (e.g. forcing spawn on people).

Also, no clue how antilag can be TOO GOOD


(prophett) #6

Also agree on the 1hk gibbing snipers - remove the gib.


(potty200) #7

So you want to play ET? :s

I agree with some points but I would love to move competitive away from stopwatch. It is never going to break into a proper competitive title unless we accept that the mode is awful to watch and understand for a viewer. Looks messy at the best of times.

The most key point here for me is the snipers being way too powerful. On long maps like chapel they are a waste of time to play against. I feel like waiting for the map to end :frowning:


(Glottis-3D) #8

[QUOTE=potty200;524963]I agree with some points but I would love to move competitive away from stopwatch. It is never going to break into a proper competitive title unless we accept that the mode is awful to watch and understand for a viewer. Looks messy at the best of times.
[/QUOTE]

the messyness is map related, not mode related.
we do not have a single finished good map here.

it turns out that SD cannot make a good map for stopwatch - this is what i cannot bear. and that bugs me a lot.


(fubar) #9

[QUOTE=potty200;524963]So you want to play ET? :s

I agree with some points but I would love to move competitive away from stopwatch. It is never going to break into a proper competitive title unless we accept that the mode is awful to watch and understand for a viewer. Looks messy at the best of times.

The most key point here for me is the snipers being way too powerful. On long maps like chapel they are a waste of time to play against. I feel like waiting for the map to end :([/QUOTE]

No intention of turning this in ET, I don’t think I ever even implied as much. Providing an example of an already existing and working system is entirely different thing all together. :slight_smile:

I believe SW works, has before, still does. It may be confusing to people unfamiliar with the system at first glance, but it really isn’t rocket science. The same system is used in battlefield series, as “rush”, other popular games have it too. Your average viewer surely outsmarts a retarded hamster.

Absolutely agree with Glottis here as well. SD is awful at creating maps, period. ET, ETQW… Brink. and now DB, every single game has this in common, horrible horrible map design.


(ToonBE) #10

[QUOTE=potty200;524963]So you want to play ET? :s

I agree with some points but I would love to move competitive away from stopwatch. It is never going to break into a proper competitive title unless we accept that the mode is awful to watch and understand for a viewer. Looks messy at the best of times.

The most key point here for me is the snipers being way too powerful. On long maps like chapel they are a waste of time to play against. I feel like waiting for the map to end :([/QUOTE]

I am very curious to what game mode you have in mind for competitive play?


(onYn) #11

Yop. Geting them characters.


(Zenity) #12

Well it just so happens that you dislike pretty much everything that is not like ET. :slight_smile: The systems were working in ET because competitive players take what exists, find the best strategies and hidden depths, and then make it work for them. There is no particular reason why spawn camping or suicide has to work exactly as it does in ET for example. People will work out new strategies with the new mechanics, and that’s that.

I don’t agree with Potty that Stopwatch is bad for spectating. It’s not quite as easy to follow as round based games for example, but good commentators can make it quite exciting.

When it comes to maps, SD has never been good at making the short and fast-paced type of stopwatch map which most RTCW players seem to prefer. That said, I always thought that SD maps were of higher quality than the maps we usually play (both in terms of attractiveness and being fun to play on). They just didn’t really work with the original Stopwatch rules, since double full-holds were way too likely.

The system that allows a team to win without completing all the objectives is what makes SD’s particular style of map design work, and it’s one of the changes that I appreciate the most. I think this will make the game far more spectator friendly, and I for one am glad that we can actually play on SD’s pretty maps for a change.

Also keep in mind that this is the first time SD is in it for the long haul. Even if they don’t get balance perfectly right from the start, this time they will be able to tweak it as we go along. This will become particularly interesting once high-level competition gets going, as this will make it very clear what the most severe issues are.


(fubar) #13

People need to stop jumping on the bandwagon. This game will never be ET, it’s so far from ET, CS has more similarities at this point.
I would love another ET, but it’s never happening and I’m fine with that. The reviveshields and spawnshields are flawed. You’re supposed to be given an advantage in your spawn, you get that advantage taken away from you, by having your shield removed upon performing an action, how is a team ever supposed to break through the spawnrapes? Especially given the current map design with endlessly long and big spawn exits, you can’t reach before the timer runs its curse. Bad map design anyone? Reviveshields can work as they are, albeit they are annoying, misinformation and very badly implemented in its current state. This is purely related to the spawnshields.
Spawnkilling is a thing, you’ve got timer based objectives, you have timer based spawn waves, you have timer based spam, why the **** would people not want to use those to the most efficient way possible, which, in fact is, getting a player out for the full duration of his spawn TIMER. This has nothing to do with ET, this is a simple core mechanic that is adopted into every single game, in existence, that ever used the same or similar system.
Synchronized spawntimes, apart from being one of the biggest culprits of easy spawnrapes, is also a majority reason as to why there are so many god damn double fullholds in this game. Attackers need an advantage, something that’s ignored in the map design, such as it was in ET’s default maps as well, because… SD has no idea how to actually make a competitively viable map, they never have. They look pretty, maybe even offer story, but they’re straight up bad for competition.

I’m not asking for the suicide to work the way ET does, ET had instagib, this game doesn’t. RtCW didn’t either. I’m asking for the suicide bind to have CONSISTENCY. It’s random, it has a uncontrollable and unpredictable delay that sometimes lets you kill out 3 seconds before spawn, while missing a wave and other times you can kill on 23 or even 22 seconds and still get into the wave. It’s randomness that is bad for competitive gaming. Randomness and things outside of a player’s control that ruin competitive gaming.

Rounds are easier to follow, yes. But the entirety of the game is designed to support stopwatch, you… simply can’t go back, undo everything and adept a new gametype. We’re stuck with stopwatch, and as such, might as well make it work the way it’s intended to.


(Protekt1) #14

Just wondering, do you follow hearthstone esports at all? That game has much more grind than this game likely ever will and that has not slowed it one bit into becoming playing competitively. You can’t get by on just a single deck in competition, you need at least 3 and those 3 you want to bring may change from week to week so to really have no barriers to success you need almost every top card in the game which is actually quite a lot.

I’m not really trying to make a grand point other than grinding or paying into the game has not been a barrier to making a F2P successful as a competitively played game, nor as an esport. Look at LoL as well. Heroes of the storm as a third.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t continue to iterate on the loadout system.


(Rémy Cabresin) #15

Good list, probably the most on point(competitive suggestions that is) one from all the lists I’ve seen on the forums so far. Agree with most if not all.

@Zenity
It’s not ET, it’s not going to be. But we can all agree that the current spawnshield and spawnrape system developping in DB isn’t desirable. There is no 100% cure for SK, but ET’s system allows people to defend their own spawn without being punished for it. DB’s system punishes you by removing the spawnshield as soon as you do something. The point of spawn [protection] is that it protects you for a certain amount of time so you can clear/leave your spawn with little risk. DB doesn’t let you do that at this point. ‘Spawnkill’ can still happen in the chokepoints close to the spawn, but at least the actual spawn area would be safer with a different system than the current one. Chapels first attacking spawn is the best example.

The current SW system can work, you can argue that if a team fullholds the first stage that stage counts as the map limit. Thus winning that sole stage wins you the game. But if thats the case, why bother practicing the other stages of the map. If you can fullhold the first stage, the rest doesn’t matter anyway. It’s weird. Not wrong necessarily, but weird definitely.

@Protekt1
Having to grind for something, in whatever game, is a killer for competitive play. Knowing that SD won’t disable cards for competitive play it needs another solution. Fubars suggest is one of the more relaxed ones still.


(fubar) #16

[QUOTE=Protekt1;524987]Just wondering, do you follow hearthstone esports at all? That game has much more grind than this game likely ever will and that has not slowed it one bit into becoming playing competitively. You can’t get by on just a single deck in competition, you need at least 3 and those 3 you want to bring may change from week to week so to really have no barriers to success you need almost every top card in the game which is actually quite a lot.

I’m not really trying to make a grand point other than grinding or paying into the game has not been a barrier to making a F2P successful as a competitively played game, nor as an esport. Look at LoL as well. Heroes of the storm as a third.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t continue to iterate on the loadout system.[/QUOTE]

I have never played hearthstone or even looked much into it, I can’t really comment on that system. However, I have played LoL few years back and was in the 1900s in s1. Yes, there is… arguably a grind to it. The only grind however being character unlocks (think mercs) and the possibility of runes (augments applicable and interchangeable for every character you own, if I were able to use my proxy augment on fragger, this would be an entirely different topic). The skins (only obtainable by real money) do not offer any benefit than cosmetic. Also do note that for tournaments players are given access to accounts that feature every possible rune (augments) and characters (mercs), which eliminates the grind for a competitive environment. Though, that being said, it’s an entirely different game and genre, which really can’t be compared with one another.

Not to mention a seperation from cosmetics, weapons and perks allows SD to constantly release new skins without having to worry about balancing issues or even be overtly creative about it.


(LiNkzr) #17

Currently credit cost of mercs is way too high and offer way less variation than changing from champion to another in LoL or from hero to another on dota for example. I don’t feel like I get my money back if I pay 9,99e for a merc.


(Voshy) #18

All great points, agree on everything


(prophett) #19

[QUOTE=adeto;524988]
It’s not ET, it’s not going to be. But we can all agree that the current spawnshield and spawnrape system developping in DB isn’t desirable. There is no 100% cure for SK, but ET’s system allows people to defend their own spawn without being punished for it[/QUOTE]

That’s what made most rtcw/ET maps so good. You could defend most objectives from your spawn or there were enough alternate routes - supply, goldrush, beach, radar, etc, etc, etc…


(INF3RN0) #20

Agree with most of it, which I didn’t even interpret as “copy+paste ET” so… anyway my differing opinions.

Of all the ways to get insta-gibbed in the game, snipers are the least consistent and highest skilled way to achieve that. You’d have to have some incredible consistency to keep up with the other mercs as sniper, so I’m completely fine with the mechanic. Adding more scope sway while moving/jumping or something along those lines would be a better compromise because I think the insta-gib has its place. Not sure who is making sniping feel/look overpowered, but even the best snipers in the game get constantly get forced out of the role when playing against well organized teams of equal skill that react intelligently.

The SW tie breaking method can be confusing, but I don’t mind it much anymore. It makes sense really and the only argument I could form in my head about why it was bad/unfair was because I was used to playing tie breaker maps over and over until someone won in prev SD games. Unless maps become much more offensively biased, we’d likely end up with most maps in higher level matchmaking resulting in ties all the time. What does need to happen if this system is in place though is ending the game when it’s officially over, rather than being forced to play out a loss.

I still don’t get what the deal is with lag or the netcode. Sure you get delayed deaths or trade kills sometimes, but in most cases if you play the situation out well you’ll win every time without issue. I find it a bearable burden when I think back to how unplayable other netcode methods are. I’ve likely played more DB on 200+ ping than anyone else (maybe some AUS got me beat) and I rarely feel at a significant disadvantage unless I hit the 250+ mark. Perhaps there are some discrepancies at differing pings, but if you aim spot on you hit every time. I think you’d have to be playing at a ridiculously high aiming level, that the game has yet to see, before pings really became the deciding variable.

Also the ability to block explosives with turrets/stations/etc is good imo. It adds something interesting without being too extreme. After testing bushwhacker out this weekend I found that you could block the first bit of damage with the turret when the other team was trying to play a long-range cover. I wish there were more things like this, but they seem to be slowly leaking in (likely not intentionally either) like the explosive blast jumps.