Square pegs and round holes.

(Raviolay) #1

To me that saying, is what Dirty Bomb has been like ever since you as a team decided. To go down this new direction Much of what I will post hear has been touched upon, or been done before in posts by myself and others time and time again.

Firstly the new(ish) direction is great, however all of the content that encompasses it does not and can not fit it. No matter how many times you try to hammer a square peg into a round hole. To me the gamemode stopwatch does not fit. Nor does archetypes (classes) with objectives and objective proficiency levels. The maps themselves never really worked when we had a class based system, classless has made them worse. Now there are movement mechanics and nothing in the constantly reworked maps to really make use of them.

To me, in-order to get this to work you need to scrap the maps, proficiency based objectives and lastly the game mode Stopwatch. Sounds like lunacy I know, but then again smacking a square peg into a round hole is also. Your current work could still be used, but I will go into that latter.

Again I don’t know why I am bothering with this as none of this is going to be taken on board, done or even considered. Much like the community calling for side objectives and better objectives, then getting the same side objectives positioned differently. With the main objectives being dumbed down to a pile on, in a area not needing a proficient class, erm… I mean archetype.

Ages ago I posted this…

[QUOTE=Raviolay;458197]I would not mind a escort mission that uses a neutral starting train in the center of the map on a symmetrical map. Both teams wrestle for control of the trains direction. Who ever wins the train first, from that point on is the attacker and moves toward the opposite side of their spawn, with 3 road blocks/destroy track objectives for defenders. The guys on offense have destroy blockage & repair track. Best of two stopwatch if one team wins the train twice it is a automatic win for them.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Now something along those lines would work better IMO, it does not have to be a train or even be best of two, it could be anything. You could say have data cores or files (anything you can dream of) and get them to the choppa at your end (or opponents end of the map). I mean you could call the mode Extraction :wink: you could then finally dispense with trying to make something fit when it doesn’t.

As for all the content you have now, you could take on board what has been said for two years or more. Then give us the class based game that we started with, only action on the map concerns that have plagued them. Not right away I might add, but after this game finally “ships”.

(Mustang) #2

Maybe it’s a round peg in a square hole, sometimes they will fit a little better.

Honestly though I don’t have a problem with the classless system, as long as there is proficiency, agreed a lot of stuff still needs to be re-worked, but I still hope for more movement mechanics before committing to other major changes, also if stopwatch was dumped I probably wouldn’t find much longevity in the game.

(Exedore) #3

This isn’t really the case. Game modes and maps are the hardest and most involved things to change, which is why you don’t see them changing at the rate of other elements. I don’t want to ask you all to be patient as you’ve heard that more than a few times, all I’m saying is that we recognise that these elements are not where they need to be right now and have plans to address it.

(Glottis-3D) #4

Whitechapel was changed pretty quickly (i remember 3 versions of it in like 3 monthes), so was bridge-alt. but now its like half a year without changes (big changes i mean).

(Exedore) #5

The general rule of thumb is that the newer the map is the easier it is to change, as our construction methods have evolved considerably over time. It’s also far more important to us now that the maps can be iterated on quickly than it was earlier in the project, as I alluded to in my older State of Play post.

(BomBaKlaK) #6

Maybe some hope !

(INF3RN0) #7

Maps don’t fit SW mode due to the sheer repetitive and frustrating nature of layouts, among other game mechanics. I think it would work as a mode if the spawn systems, obj mechanics, and map layouts were prioritized- I’d even include cooperative merc play as well. What has worked best so far is execution and TDM. This is because they don’t require nearly as much to make for a functional experience, but the overall reward is that much less quantifiable. SW isn’t a bad mode, but it simply exposes the faults in the structure and lack of retentive features. I personally wanted to see this game become recognized as the LoL of FPS rather than a replica of something I’ve already played for hundreds of hours, but so far it’s felt like we’ve been sitting at an indecisive cross road that’s led to a fairly confusing and unrefined outcome. It’s the reason why every new player keeps dropping the term ‘potential’, but the game’s gotta commit fully to something to satisfy.

(Hundopercent) #8

You know it’s bad when I can 100% agree with inferno…

(acutepuppy) #9

One of the things that makes league so exciting is the pacing. The game ebbs and flows with moments of intense action. Players fighting one on one space each other out until team mechanics or positioning come into play. It makes it enjoyable to spectate, easy to explain the flow of the game, and lots of mechanical “good plays”.

That’s tough to get in a shooter that has so much emphasis on aiming. Watching a play in League doesn’t have that “I couldn’t have done that” feeling that someone scoring a snap-twitch headshot does. That’s why a friend who doesn’t know what the hell I’m playing gets totally gripped into watching a 45 minute game of Leauge. I explain the laning phase, tell them when an enemy might be overextending or when I catch someone flanking with a ward my team mate placed, and can tell them how I’ll use my abilities to out position the flanking player, pull in my main opponent, deal damage, and escape (and whether I’ll be going for a kill or not). There are more intricate details of the in-game items, and out-of-game mastery points, and runes, but those don’t change the spectator’s experience.

One way that DB could achieve this is better spawning, map control, and make something about objectives be an actual assault or escort attempt. Quake Wars had good flow in this way. Typically you didn’t spawn with the doc-run objectives, you gathered and controlled the area and then made a dash together through a general contestable area, and a corridor. The territory control of QW was so well done, that the type of big-play pacing really did happen. The battle environments had chokepoints that were “sides of buildings” instead of “doorways”. The bridge on Valley was hotly contested, but once the forward spawn was taken it was over. The battle environments were so open and well spaced that the pure shooters could make their plays when things got close up, but grenades, rockets, artillery, coverts (the radar system was wonderful and coutnerable), and the like kept people pushed away.

When things got indoors, like the end of Valley or Sewer, the oppressor shields, mines, flyer drones, etc… kept players pushed into their respective sides. On top of that, maps like Sewer had great spacing between Strogg and GDF spawnpoints that allowed for quick switches between team control. GDF could hack during battle, or secure the area and fight off the spawn wave and wait for the covert.

Removing the actual chapel in White Chapel says to me that pacing and spacing have horrible problems, because that should be an absolute blast of an area to play.

I want to play Quake Wars again :[

(ailmanki) #10

Interesting, actually QW was better then ET, but DB seems inferior to QW. Smaller maps, no vehicles, list goes on…
DB seems more like the style of ET, since it has no vehicles and similar small maps. But the map selection itself is not that good; the movement is gimmicky.
The Mercs are better then in ET a bigger selection, yet it does not cover the available stuff from ET - surprisingly. No Flamethower, no panzerfaust, no mg42, no mortar.

Speaking of items, when you throw the airstrikecan in ET, you get a nice arc of blue/red smoke, which looks good (well for today graphics - its crap). But when you throw the DB variation of it, there is just a pineapple nade flying away, and then you get a laser marker. Would be cool to make that more fancy; but please let us disable that extra fancyness.

The last missing ability the covert ops being able to get an uniform, well I can live without it; its going to be useless anyway in a 8vs8 match - that is quite different with 20vs20.

The maps them self, well I suppose SD is aware of the differences/potential and everyone else too… so not going into detail there.

All in all I meant to say, DB has todo much better if it wants to become better then QW and ET. Right now its graphics are the only thing which are better then in ET and its selection of mercs.

(Rex) #11

It doesn’t want to. :frowning:

(Seanza) #12

Dirty Bomb has been having an identity crisis since its inception.

(RasteRayzeR) #13

I read this and wonder why the maps went into numerous art and performance passes when the layouts are not yet working ? Why not iterate on blockouts until they work well, then do all the pretty stuff on them ? Because from what I see you will never be able to iterate quickly on the current maps because of the load of work already done on them.

I really think people around here would actually enjoy blockout maps with weekly updates on the layout (that would be fast iterations), and then when they work give them to SD’s talented artists. Going the other way around has not worked so far and probably cost you a lot of work and money for “nothing”.

(BomBaKlaK) #14

Even the actual maps in Blockout stage are not fun (especially batersea) and the map is already in graphic design stage ?
I understand there is some trouble to change all the actual work. But clearly if you keep the actual maps your game is already born dead as brink was.

Now I’m waiting for some news, but I’m not interested anymore to play for the moment. (like 99% of the player base)

(Mangosteez) #15

just like playing the game coming to the forums makes me sad

(Exedore) #16

I actually can’t answer why it’s been that way in the past, because I was working on Arkham. Iterating on blockouts is very much the direction we’re going.

(AssortedStuff) #17

…(comment edited out, no longer relevant)…

(spookify) #18

[QUOTE=ailmanki;505504]Interesting, actually QW was better then ET, but DB seems inferior to QW. Smaller maps, no vehicles, list goes on…
DB seems more like the style of ET, since it has no vehicles and similar small maps. But the map selection itself is not that good; the movement is gimmicky.
The Mercs are better then in ET a bigger selection, yet it does not cover the available stuff from ET - surprisingly. No Flamethower, no panzerfaust, no mg42, no mortar.

Speaking of items, when you throw the airstrikecan in ET, you get a nice arc of blue/red smoke, which looks good (well for today graphics - its crap). But when you throw the DB variation of it, there is just a pineapple nade flying away, and then you get a laser marker. Would be cool to make that more fancy; but please let us disable that extra fancyness.

The last missing ability the covert ops being able to get an uniform, well I can live without it; its going to be useless anyway in a 8vs8 match - that is quite different with 20vs20.

The maps them self, well I suppose SD is aware of the differences/potential and everyone else too… so not going into detail there.

All in all I meant to say, DB has todo much better if it wants to become better then QW and ET. Right now its graphics are the only thing which are better then in ET and its selection of mercs.[/QUOTE]

I agree and disagree. I didnt like QW at all and quit before the first few updates which I guess fixed a lot of the spread and other problems. Probably should have stuck it out however the first few weeks were unplayable!

Panzer and mortar in DB heck yes but only if you can kill fast enough… Manage he TTK its still to fast and to slow all at the same time… ROF is really messing with things… Plus all the different guns to balance wow its going to be hard.