Do you think the Fryer is over powered?


(g00n) #1

Since its time coming out with Tesla, the fryer gun has been a powerful game player. The norm was using two of these weapons in a squad, but just one shows how range and damage factor with squad point still feels over powered for a squad. When you compare it to other weapons of 5 squad points it shines way above. For example just look at otto semi-auto stats. I really truely belive this weapon is a squad 6pts unique specialised weapon, it should still keep energy of 5, but maybe reduce damage a little.

No one voting? or saying anything?


(SuperNge) #2

I think we can make the others more strong or let it 5pts with lower damage.
Yes, like this better.


(tinker) #3

It IS powerfull
but it is only “overpowered” in current “meta”

people ONLY and rly ONLY play sniper
and stay at range
ofc it is powerfull here . it is DESIGNED to be powerfull at range.

play more melees, shotguns, suds and you will see that it is not here.
especially in 14 and 20 pt games (people tend to always refer to 26pt games- while this is not the center of the game)
once you are close to the foe, the dmg is like pistol(actually worse)
this gun is ONLY good (or lets say better than average) at a range of >5

if you choose this weapon, you probably take it with juan, since his movement is low, you pick gus marx with him, maybe 1-2 daves/kates and the team is done. MAYBE switch 1 juan with a lahacque.

if you are only a LITTLE familiar with countering meta-gaming, or some more “real-life-stuff”, convincing people, winning an argument, hypnotize someone, nlp … the list is long – you should know how powerfull pattern-interrupt is
people have no idea how to play when they face a tim taschman, suds, spud, dee, carlito, megan, tito, tree, IVAN
usually they just go with their common pattern, try to kill in round 1 or 2
sadly the players that use the named characters often don’t even know how to play them (too), they play them like a sniper(lol) and lose the game

but if you are good with them and play them (ofc it will take 20-40 games till you REALLY know what to do) you will win against the meta-setup juan+gus in any game-mode

instead of making the electri-fryer weak, increase dmg of otto semi-auto (thus making it stronger than hoo-hah ar, what actually should be since it is a sniper rifle) by 5-10 pt on each range
make pete’s headshot more powerfull, e.g. as a passive (so each shot will do ~20 more dmg), 4 times use, doubled effect … the options are great here.
and god damn it use some OTHER setups.
when I start games right now, usually with suds, taschman, megan (imo 3 of the most underused chars that I still like a lot [I don’t like spud e.g.]
I do loose some games, but just because I’m not so much used to them, planting a perfect suds c4 while keeping an eye on enemy position, thinking about every commander position (and his radar) IS hard and I’m just not used to it (but will be soon)

short version
electri-fryer sucks on short range (only good at >5)
only good, because EVERYONE uses snipers, and those who don’t play chars like Taschman like a sniper (lol)
instead of cutting electri-fryer, increase dmg of otto semi-auto by 5-10 on every range
change Headshot in any way, make it more powerfull.
animate people to use different setups, best if you upload videos of yourself doing so

that’s my opinion so far

with friendly regards
tinker


(Beebi_Gun) #4

[QUOTE=tinker;489628]if you are only a LITTLE familiar with countering meta-gaming, or some more “real-life-stuff”, convincing people, winning an argument, hypnotize someone, nlp … the list is long – you should know how powerfull pattern-interrupt is
people have no idea how to play when they face a tim taschman, suds, spud, dee, carlito, megan, tito, tree, IVAN
usually they just go with their common pattern, try to kill in round 1 or 2
sadly the players that use the named characters often don’t even know how to play them (too), they play them like a sniper(lol) and lose the game

but if you are good with them and play them (ofc it will take 20-40 games till you REALLY know what to do) you will win against the meta-setup juan+gus in any game-mode[/QUOTE]

How do you suggest using those chars ?? Personally, I’d go for sniper-builds to-- counter sniper-builds; I at least need one (and I don’t mean all sniper team btw~ just 1-2). Is there really a way to get in close to kill them, or pose any threat at all ?? I find that if you have no sniper, you’re just gonna be picked and torned apart shot by shot. Dee can be useful with the shield-o-bot (or however you spell it) to somewhat defend against them [and more] but with no sniper support… I never use him anyway.

I’m worried about the part where you say most people use them [Suds; Megan; Ivan & etc.] like a sniper, as I fear I may be one of those. =P I’ve always been sniper-built in games similar to this one either.

I do like to randomize my team most of the time though, I then QQ when I have no sniper and am being picked by my enemy. :frowning:

Otto is garbage, honestly, at least compared to other snipers. Otto should be given +10 dmg minimum to be considered something.

[QUOTE=tinker;489628]make pete’s headshot more powerfull, e.g. as a passive (so each shot will do ~20 more dmg), 4 times use, doubled effect … the options are great here.
and god damn it use some OTHER setups.[/QUOTE]

This is also a good option, though I’m not sure about the passive. All weapons with Pete +20% dmg?! Imagine how would that be like, because I can’t. The double effect should be more likely to start with, assuming you’re saying it should do 2x the dmg it would normally inflict.

And I’m still pondering on the idea if snipers should truly excel in Range AND Damage (well realistically, I guess, but as in-game balance? Idk). Moreover so drastically.

If you didn’t, I-- I guess I would come up with a crazy theory about what are you and why would you be.

I wouldn’t say it sucks close range, especially seeing that its lowest dmg is more or less the standard of some weapons. It’s just not as effective OR not as to how it was designed to be used OR would be just wasting energy by not using its full potential; but suck? Hell no.

I really wonder how is to play characters as Taschman like a sniper, I’m almost sure I do. :tongue:

Yes, this game has no videos whatsoever, NONE. The only videos I’ve seen are some relatively old ones, posted by you. And mostly, if not all, were sniper-builds, to be honest. XD Just mentioning.

@g00n: Why is there no option to just lower dmg, but instead you have increase SP AND lower dmg ?? That’s crazy. XD

Actually, just noticed it’s like howSuperNge suggested. I think that what they are going for is that a 5 SP sniper is needed but that range with that dmg is hell of annoying, unless it’s you using it. xP

Sorry for unnecessary long post, I always go overboard. :o


(g00n) #5

@g00n: Why is there no option to just lower dmg, but instead you have increase SP AND lower dmg ?? That’s crazy. XD

  1. it will interfere with otto which to me is a common weapon (all common are 5 squad points as average)
  2. fryer is a unique weapon, it is a specialist type. It has a good damage/range/energy and by just adding one squad point extra it somehow fits more comfortable between otto and botherer. Right now it totally out classes otto and because of this it is so popular it has now become common. Otto is obsolete, though I love using it for it feels about right fairly in a game compared to fryer. Fryer is a game advantage if you keep the distance and this really affects all low ranged weapon teams.
  3. fryer with a slow Juan really is powerful with three shots and a throw flamer around 5-6 range.
    *if you look at the weapon it really should take longer to recharge each shot, but that is taking it too far.

I dont think petes head shot or otto should go up, this will just make more problems in long run. It is the gap between otto and fryer and fryer with botherer that needs to be looked at.

Ive also suggested having optimum ranges to be one or two lower than long range, so players need to get into game to do more kills…it sure be more blood baths :stuck_out_tongue: Absoluted long range should be lower for it is harder to aim and punch power of bullet not as effective (though botherer and avenger seem able to be stronger than any other weap in this).

Im wondering the more I think about the point system especially for 26 point games the toons need to be a squad points and weapons a plus or minus to get squad teams, but thats a different topic


(Beebi_Gun) #6

Otto may be a “common” weapon, but sure as hell is not a sniper. It’s a medium-long range high cal. semi-rifle-- with a scope added afterwards just for convenience.

I think making Otto stronger is actually more viable. Otto doesn’t feel really much like a sniper even if you make Fryer’s mostly useless. Say, you truly believe that upping 1 SP to Fryer would make people go Otto ? Drop Fryer for something else ? The +1 SP would still make us able to fit them in, just with a few more sacrifices elsewhere. =P

[QUOTE=g00n;489833]3) fryer with a slow Juan really is powerful with three shots and a throw flamer around 5-6 range.
*if you look at the weapon it really should take longer to recharge each shot, but that is taking it too far.

I dont think petes head shot or otto should go up, this will just make more problems in long run. It is the gap between otto and fryer and fryer with botherer that needs to be looked at.[/QUOTE]

You may even be right about the head shot, for it could buff up too much with weapons of sheer power, but Otto needs some utility; and no, making Fryer harder to fit in doesn’t grant Otto that utility.

That could be an option; either stay too away and defensive and sacrifice dmg or risk get a little closer to get full potential; I like it. Only for Fryer because insane range, at least for now.

But that also means that they can be threatened with troops that close in (problem is which and how to close in lol). Next is 1-3 squares away snipers’ dmg should be worse than mediocre (like 3 dmg if 1 tile away) to totally punish if they get entrapped.

Toons also costing SP?? Would that fit??
It’s pretty late here and my brain is not really working the best right now. True story. Sorry in advance, for if I say something that does not make much sense, it’s very likely.


(tinker) #7

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489818]How do you suggest using those chars ?? Personally, I’d go for sniper-builds to-- counter sniper-builds; I at least need one (and I don’t mean all sniper team btw~ just 1-2). Is there really a way to get in close to kill them, or pose any threat at all ?? I find that if you have no sniper, you’re just gonna be picked and torned apart shot by shot. Dee can be useful with the shield-o-bot (or however you spell it) to somewhat defend against them [and more] but with no sniper support… I never use him anyway.

I’m worried about the part where you say most people use them [Suds; Megan; Ivan & etc.] like a sniper, as I fear I may be one of those. =P I’ve always been sniper-built in games similar to this one either.
[/QUOTE]
well, people tend to do the same things they do with snipers with any other char
sniper common strategy: go for kill in 1st or 2nd round. especially when any gus is in there, no matter what cost, go for kill STRAIGHT
and that DOES work often… just not always
my game with igor-rus at the moment is the PERFEKT example for that. he did, what I did the whole tournament over, using 5-9 pushes to get the kill right away. this worked for me, because killing a 300 hp guy with 1 fryer and artillery is impossible, and gus usually is out of range.
but only 1 mistake here and your whole turn is a biiiig mistake, since your 5-9 pushes also do damage to your own targets, and leaving a 200 hp guy in the open fireline is just not anymore “impossible” to kill. - bam badaboom - I negated or better said contered his move, 2 pushes vs 6 pushes with nearly the same result. he did a mistake there, better said 2… 1. was picking laser, a blockade and he would have won at that moment. 2. he was so focused on his snipers, he didnt even think of using his artillery instead of 1 shot in order to use THAT energy for 1 more cell walking - this would also be a win.
the game is not over yet, I can’t say it is a win right now but it will most likely be one in my favour

so your question now probably is, how would I win this, without my second sniper or gus to push him (or the fryer)
and the fact is : probably not. But here is what I mean - you would just not BE in that kind of situation if you would play the other setup in its right way.
You just have to think more and plan more to win with something else right now.

  1. thing here is: you have different movement speed, so you would just be on different cells.
  2. thing … as I mentioned, you can’t play a taschman like a juan. the taschman is way more defensiv than the juan, you need to plan at least 2 turns ahead in order to use him properly. and with that planing you should know where he might go.
  3. thing - the 2nd is a great benefit. all people tend to play like “I got snipers - I got this”, and don’t even think about the enemy turn - I do not exclude myself at this point. his turn was predictable, I did the same turn 2 times before but just did not think of it to happen. playing a different setup will lead your head to play more conscious.

I can’t give you a step-by-step toturial of how to play taschman,suds and co. right now. the point is, you just can’t be as offensive as a sniper, you actually WAIT for the enemy to do a great sacrifice or a mistake.

that is the human nature. but I can tell you something here
just play with “randomized” or just uncommon setups. the fact is: everything else than sniper+gus is no meta - and thus it is in a way underpowered
so playing with these setups, you just set your mind in this way: If you loose, well, your team was underpowered. and if you win just wayyy better.
and this is just not a lie. you did not care that much about a loose when you started a game, right? the game should be fun, and a loose is also a win, you actually learn more from a loose than from a win.

not garbage, it was great before fryer came and it still kinda is, just the same here ; don’t play it like a fryer

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489818]
This is also a good option, though I’m not sure about the passive. All weapons with Pete +20% dmg?! Imagine how would that be like, because I can’t. The double effect should be more likely to start with, assuming you’re saying it should do 2x the dmg it would normally inflict
[/QUOTE] don’t know why 20% more would be such a great deal. there is no unpredictable use here, and in fact you would not get such a bonus damage in a whole game. … let’s say you get 5 shots with the fryer out, each shot ~ 60 dmg, each shot +12 dmg, so you have a bonus of 60 dmg that’s not much, and it is TOTALLY predictable. and 5 shots in 14 pt is not really common. more like 2-4, and let’s compare to a dave grenade, un
predictable, pushback and AOE dmg, usually does more than 100 dmg per game.
with double effect I actually ment 4x use headshot, what would be a bonus of 80 dmg.
same to double effect OF headshot, what would be 2x40 = 80 dmg

I have no Idea where you took your numbers from. on <=5 cells fryer dmg/energy is less than 10, on 2 and 1 range it is ~5. even the cold audomatic has more(on all ranges)

I mainly play snipers in tournaments because they are so damn unpredictable. I played Pete Dave from the very beginning and just never changed alot there. I start to play more different setups but snipers will always be my favourit

my best tipp on how to play taschman, suds and co.
like in the 2 last missions with a given setup… last stand taschman and downtown-rumble are the names I think
everyone who did these 2 mission over and over to get the 3 stars… that’s just how you should play taschman and co.


(Beebi_Gun) #8

[QUOTE=tinker;489883]so your question now probably is, how would I win this, without my second sniper or gus to push him (or the fryer)
and the fact is : probably not. But here is what I mean - you would just not BE in that kind of situation if you would play the other setup in its right way.[/QUOTE]

The problem is: how not to be ?? When you try to give the game another approach, say, and try not to play sniper-like (so you have to get closer to the enemy) - either you are forced to move because…goddamn hold center - but after you do you get picked from afar OR (in other situations) you’re blown out of cover by grenades or artillery; and the punishment for allowing that is usually severely harsh.

You see, I don’t mind that [so much]. I mean, snipers are always my favourite, but I just don’t think that’s how it should be. I believe it should be rewarding towards every class, and right now that’s not the case. Right now is: If you want easy wins - Go sniper; if you want ****load yourself and brain-kill you at the same time - Go anything else.

[QUOTE=tinker;489883]2. thing … as I mentioned, you can’t play a taschman like a juan. the taschman is way more defensiv than the juan, you need to plan at least 2 turns ahead in order to use him properly. and with that planing you should know where he might go.
3. thing - the 2nd is a great benefit. all people tend to play like “I got snipers - I got this”, and don’t even think about the enemy turn - I do not exclude myself at this point. his turn was predictable, I did the same turn 2 times before but just did not think of it to happen. playing a different setup will lead your head to play more conscious.[/QUOTE]

I know that and I’ve experienced that before. I’ve been practicing playing other setups (not sniper) and I can confirm you it’s hella fun. Especially when you win either because of the enemy not being used to counter the strategy or the characters themselves. And as you mentioned the plus is that you do indeed develop a new perspective of the game and how each character can be played. However it’s just not rewarding enough [other than pride by outsmarting your opponent / THAT / and showing people that challenge you building a map favourable to snipers and their team that you can still beat them nonetheless :tongue:].

Don’t worry about me. I don’t need a step-by-step tuto; I would gladly accept one but that would be asking too much. =P Even because I’m not exactly a new player. I’d just be giving you extra work that should be me doing [the thinking]. Thank you anyway.

[QUOTE=tinker;489883]that is the human nature. but I can tell you something here
just play with “randomized” or just uncommon setups. the fact is: everything else than sniper+gus is no meta - and thus it is in a way underpowered
so playing with these setups, you just set your mind in this way: If you loose, well, your team was underpowered. and if you win just wayyy better.
and this is just not a lie. you did not care that much about a loose when you started a game, right? the game should be fun, and a loose is also a win, you actually learn more from a loose than from a win.[/QUOTE]

I do that [randomize] all my matches. Playing the same setup bores the hell out of me. I need to keep changing characters otherwise the game just feels very dull and stale. And you don’t have to be concerned of how I feel about win/lose; that’s not really my issue here. I couldn’t care less TBH, as long as it’s fun [and +/- equal], I’m for it. But the fact the sniper-build is the “only-way-to-go” build sort of leaves me sad for this game… I know it’s not exactly the only, but it is the only viable and steady one.

I had this match where my setup ended up being Pete - Knife / Dave - Knife / Taschman - Pistol (oh dear) / Angie - Revolver / Spud - AR (not sure if it was really Spud) / and ofc Captain with Pistol VS Juan - Botherer / Juanita - Fryer / Kate - SMG (I think) / Gus (I think it was Gus) / and Captain (can’t remember exactly the weapons of the others) - the map was the Train Station or the Market - not sure.

So yeah 6 vs 5, it was a tough game as I had no long range firepower; and even the close range ones were just fire, no power (lol~ bad pun, I know) - not so rewarding dmg, but dang it, did I win? Yes! You feel good and proud about it, as you said.

Don’t wanna make this too long so I won’t detail much: but I’m trying this same setup again; Train Station map - opposing team using the same build as the last one (only Kate’s and Gus’ weps are different, I think, and I’m pretty sure it’s Gus this time =P). I have to say even the freakin’ Gatling Turret ended up being useful (somewhat), right now it’s 1 vs 1 Tim (pistol) + Turret vs Juan (botherer) - around same HP 105~121 (or something like that); it’s very fun but I think I’ll lose, He’ll probably take down my turret for now, but hey I’m at the center, if I hold it (which I doubt it) I win… =P --as this opponent seems to deliver less flaws than the last one, as far as memory serve me.

Thing is, it may be fun, and you or I, or whoever else may win against sniper-builds with something else, but the fact that it is possible does not equal it is balanced or solid; not as long as you have to do extra (a lot extra, mind you) work to maintain that status; and a single mistake can [always] cost you the whole game.

That may be a good piece of advice. I’m too used to the sniper-build (Fryer/Botherer) that I probably end up doing that. Nevertheless, Otto is still UP. I know I probably still have a lot to learn but that much I can tell…

[QUOTE=tinker;489883]don’t know why 20% more would be such a great deal. there is no unpredictable use here, and in fact you would not get such a bonus damage in a whole game. … let’s say you get 5 shots with the fryer out, each shot ~ 60 dmg, each shot +12 dmg, so you have a bonus of 60 dmg that’s not much, and it is TOTALLY predictable. and 5 shots in 14 pt is not really common. more like 2-4, and let’s compare to a dave grenade, unpredictable, pushback and AOE dmg, usually does more than 100 dmg per game.
with double effect I actually ment 4x use headshot, what would be a bonus of 80 dmg.
same to double effect OF headshot, what would be 2x40 = 80 dmg[/QUOTE]

The passive and the 4x use are interesting indeed. Although I’d have to see that passive in action. But seeing how Pete’s headshot is not really rewarding enough (20% - 2x) it may not be a bad idea at all; going (50% - 2x) could be dangerous so maybe it’d, in fact, be better to at least leave it [at 20%], but always on.

What ?! And I don’t know what kind of game you been playing, but the ones I do, Fryer does 15+ dmg one tile distant. o_O I’m not crazy… I believe.

Me too, that’s mainly because I’ve always liked snipers no matter which game. :smiley: (except FPS because I’m a terrible shot)

[QUOTE=tinker;489883]my best tipp on how to play taschman, suds and co.
like in the 2 last missions with a given setup… last stand taschman and downtown-rumble are the names I think
everyone who did these 2 mission over and over to get the 3 stars… that’s just how you should play taschman and co.[/QUOTE]

Don’t even tell me about those missions~ oh god the pain, I remember them very well. It was hard to get them to Gold.


(tinker) #9

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489901]The problem is: how not to be ?? When you try to give the game another approach, say, and try not to play sniper-like (so you have to get closer to the enemy) - either you are forced to move because…goddamn hold center - but after you do you get picked from afar OR (in other situations) you’re blown out of cover by grenades or artillery; and the punishment for allowing that is usually severely harsh.

That may be a good piece of advice. I’m too used to the sniper-build (Fryer/Botherer) that I probably end up doing that. Nevertheless, Otto is still UP. I know I probably still have a lot to learn but that much I can tell…

What ?! And I don’t know what kind of game you been playing, but the ones I do, Fryer does 15+ dmg one tile distant. o_O I’m not crazy… I believe.

Don’t even tell me about those missions~ oh god the pain, I remember them very well. It was hard to get them to Gold.[/QUOTE]

not commentating the whole thing again, we discuss in a circle

fryer does 24 on 1 cell, 26 on 2 cells, about 34 on 3, 40 on 4 and 49 on 5

simple math
fryer : 25 (1 and 2 cells) / 5 = 5 damage per energy
cold audomatic : ~20 dmg on all of the 5 cells, /3 energy =~6,8 damager per energy, uses 1 less squad point

fryer only on 3 and 4 cells : ~37 /5 energy = 7,4 damage per energy
add the 5th cell and yo have ~8.4 damage per energy( so ONLY on cell 3,4,5. adding 1,2 and 6 will get you to an average of ~7.4)
hoo-hah AR (considered to be much weaker) average on all cells ~38 damage/4 energy=9.5dmg/energy
and using less energy on the weapon gives you way more options on your turn
so cold audomatic is on cells 1-5 on average stronger than the fryer, even when adding the 6th cell it is nearly as strong(0.6 difference is not thaaaat much)

the difference of brainwork with sniper OR with something else is not a difference like 1 and a million. it is more like 1 and 2.
let’s talk about 14 pt games for now, the options the enemy has are limited. you either think 30 seconds about his possible best move or you don’t. (and I don’t mean, you don’t even look what he has, more like that looking where he walked is all)
and knowing what he can do will change the whole aproach of you planing your move.

I will upload a game of me playing a “different” setup as soon as I can


(Beebi_Gun) #10

[QUOTE=tinker;489906]not commentating the whole thing again, we discuss in a circle

fryer does 24 on 1 cell, 26 on 2 cells, about 34 on 3, 40 on 4 and 49 on 5

simple math
fryer : 25 (1 and 2 cells) / 5 = 5 damage per energy
cold audomatic : ~20 dmg on all of the 5 cells, /3 energy =~6,8 damager per energy, uses 1 less squad point

fryer only on 3 and 4 cells : ~37 /5 energy = 7,4 damage per energy
add the 5th cell and yo have ~8.4 damage per energy( so ONLY on cell 3,4,5. adding 1,2 and 6 will get you to an average of ~7.4)
hoo-hah AR (considered to be much weaker) average on all cells ~38 damage/4 energy=9.5dmg/energy
and using less energy on the weapon gives you way more options on your turn
so cold audomatic is on cells 1-5 on average stronger than the fryer, even when adding the 6th cell it is nearly as strong(0.6 difference is not thaaaat much)[/QUOTE]

I got ya, thanks. Although, the issue is not if the Fryer is stronger than the Pistol [in that particular range]; but that it competes to it [in that particular range], and utterly destroys any chance of comparison if the range is longer - meaning it is doable either up close as in far; only that you’d be sending energy out of the window firing it up close. You’d be better off changing to a Pistol, but that’s not possible mid-game right !?

Sheer Dmg =/= Dmg/Energy - I know that.

[QUOTE=tinker;489906]the difference of brainwork with sniper OR with something else is not a difference like 1 and a million. it is more like 1 and 2.
let’s talk about 14 pt games for now, the options the enemy has are limited. you either think 30 seconds about his possible best move or you don’t. (and I don’t mean, you don’t even look what he has, more like that looking where he walked is all)
and knowing what he can do will change the whole aproach of you planing your move.[/QUOTE]

Thank you again for this; and that goes without saying. Clearly, yes, 14-Pt games are much easier to counter that kind of build; the difficulty is more on the 26-Pt ones. But everyone knows that, I guess.

That would be much appreciated. Besides the opponents I’ve faced, I’ve always liked to see two other players go at each other to see how differently from me one would react to certain moves.


(tinker) #11

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489910]I got ya, thanks. Although, the issue is not if the Fryer is stronger than the Pistol [in that particular range]; but that it competes to it [in that particular range], and utterly destroys any chance of comparison if the range is longer - meaning it is doable either up close as in far; only that you’d be sending energy out of the window firing it up close. You’d be better off changing to a Pistol, but that’s not possible mid-game right !?

Sheer Dmg =/= Dmg/Energy - I know that.
[/QUOTE]
I think you failed to follow the main argue at this point

I’m not saying the fryer is better than the pistol - I told the right opposit. in close range the fryer sucks hard, it is in average just as strong as the pistol, what is the 2nd weakest weapon in the game (with cockler, after uzi) and still uses up 1 more squad-point.
people say fryer is Overpowered - no it is not, but if you go out there with a fryer vs a fryer the better player will win 95% of the times.
go out there with a shotgun and a good gameplay and you will win vs the better player >80% of the times.

I’m not saying the fryer is weak - it IS strong, but mainly because everyone plays snipers - snipers need range, the fryer is excellent at range
But as soon as you start to play the right setups against snipers, their dmg output will sink hard.


(Beebi_Gun) #12

[QUOTE=tinker;489929]I think you failed to follow the main argue at this point

I’m not saying the fryer is better than the pistol - I told the right opposit. in close range the fryer sucks hard[/QUOTE]

I think you mistook what I said, again. I didn’t mean you said the Fryer is stronger, as I know you’ll defend it to your heart’s content and make believe that it is competitive with the Pistol. What I meant is: it doesn’t matter if the Fryer is stronger than the Pistol [or vice-versa]; truth is it competes with it, yes —until you add its range; the power escalates and its OPT damage compensates for its 5 energy drain by firing it up from afar. So in end it does not truly compete to it, anyway.

Ahaha, but you don’t actually believe that.

Yes, dmg-wise it may be as mentioned. Even more simplified - say, a 14 Pt toon with Audomadic (OPT Range) would fire 4 times (~24 dmg/shot = 96 total dmg) ~ 18 Pt toon (6 shots = 144 dmg) - with Fryer (OPT Range) would fire two times (~64 dmg/shot = 128 total dmg) ~ 18 Pt toon (3 shots = 192 dmg)

^ In a setup like this you may brush it under the carpet thinking it’s not that much of a difference (though the dmg difference is already significant enough)-- until you take into account all the other factors. Mainly seeing the OPT Range for Pistol is 1-2 and for the Fryer it’s 9; so you actually get to fire at least two shots with the Fryer most of the time, and with the Pistol you’re lucky enough to even fire one that makes any difference.

So, you do double the shots, at a much closer range, and still come off with less dmg and more vulnerable to be destroyed; what advantages does it bring ?? Mind elaborate on how they both compete ?

That’d be, for the most part, applicable to all weapons AND setups, isn’t that right !? That goes without saying… If you have the exact same squad composition as your opponent, the only factor that’d bring victory upon one another would be intellectual capacity, amongst other coefficients not dependable on units/weapons.

I must suck really hard then. No, really, it got to be me.

Or everyone else that tries to face me without snipers, when I’m in a sniper-build mode, and loses. And I’m not even a very good player, I think.

[QUOTE=tinker;489929]I’m not saying the fryer is weak - it IS strong, but mainly because everyone plays snipers - snipers need range, the fryer is excellent at range
But as soon as you start to play the right setups against snipers, their dmg output will sink hard.[/QUOTE]

I cannot say this is not true. It is, however, very difficult to trick a player to make the mistake of letting their sniper get entrapped by a close-in. Not saying it’s not possible, just requires the quadruple of effort out of it, and getting your ass handed to you as many times as you’d want to quit.

As I said previously, I’ve done it before and won, many times (not bragging, just saying for context), so I’m not skeptic it can work. I’m skeptic, however, at how effective and steadfast it is.

Most of the time you won’t be fighting against snipers alone, but the fact that they are there makes all the difference in the support for the other units, either to weaken you while the others give you the final blows or the opposite; while simply the other units may also serve to defend the snipers from close-ins.

The other viable option is to take all the other units out while avoiding the snipers. A sniper alone can’t hold sacks, so you’d be able to hold the center without opposition mainly (depending on the map). The question is: if you can avoid the snipers if/while the other units are holding the center and having the snipers “guarding” positions; you’d be forced to move in any case. That’s why I need at least ONE sniper, but I’d like if that was not the case; as you don’t see so much aching for any other class, now do you ?

Two important words: DAMAGE and RANGE ~ but kind of average/high cost in the SP department --if you put it with relatively low-cost energy and SP, there you go and you have the Fryer.

Even though my initial goal is not to complain against the Fryer, but I’m only stating my experience.
If it is OP or not, that is a hard question to answer. It is certainly not UP and AVERAGE is very debatable.


(Hundopercent) #13

Should cost 6sp.


(tinker) #14

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489978]I think you mistook what I said, again. I didn’t mean you said the Fryer is stronger, as I know you’ll defend it to your heart’s content and make believe that it is competitive with the Pistol. What I meant is: it doesn’t matter if the Fryer is stronger than the Pistol [or vice-versa]; truth is it competes with it, yes —until you add its range; the power escalates and its OPT damage compensates for its 5 energy drain by firing it up from afar. So in end it does not truly compete to it, anyway.
[/QUOTE]
No I got that
I think you totally mistook the game mechanic (or the whole logic part of my argue). I compared the pistol and the fryer on a certain range, you can’t - simply CAN’T - fully compare the pistol with the fryer - it is a 4pt weapon vs a 5pt weapon.
the simple truth is - the pistol is in average in its range as good as the fryer in the same range
and everything else is just the extra squad point.

compare the hoo-hah AR and the electri-fryer
hoo-hah AR AVERAGE dmg/energy on all 6 ranges 10.71
electri-fryer AVERAGE dmg/energy on all 9 ranges 9.1

the hoo-hah is quite steady on any range, while the dmg of electri-fryer drastically sinks to ~ 1/2

the fryer HAS 3 more range, but anything else would not be any kind of “special” SNIPER-rifle

again, you simply cannot fully compare both weapons.
and even IF you do so - you should mention both sides
a fryer unit will “always” win against a pistol unit when starting a match
but when the match is already ongoing, and the pistol unit COMES close to the fryer guy, pistol will win.

tell me, how to convince someone like you, only trying to win the argue with being sarcastic and one-sided
how to convince someone to play a “new” setup more than once in a MINDGAME if he fails the first time and blames the setup.

I’m new to setups like 2xtaschman, suds gus, carlito gus, taschman kate…
I start 15 games with 8 “new” setups and win 14 of them.
I’m not bragging, other players do the same with the same result.
I’m just saying, it is NOT about the setup, only about your aproach and your “effort” While effort is Brainwork. You don’t want to put effort into a setup? You don’t want to do Brainwork in a Mindgame? than… why do you play a mindgame. If you don’t want to think too much, play something else.

When you did it, why don’t you do it again?
it is effective in many ways.

the fact is: you don’t give this a chance. you say you do, but you simply don’t

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489978]
Most of the time you won’t be fighting against snipers alone, but the fact that they are there makes all the difference in the support for the other units, either to weaken you while the others give you the final blows or the opposite; while simply the other units may also serve to defend the snipers from close-ins.

The other viable option is to take all the other units out while avoiding the snipers. A sniper alone can’t hold sacks, so you’d be able to hold the center without opposition mainly (depending on the map). The question is: if you can avoid the snipers if/while the other units are holding the center and having the snipers “guarding” positions; you’d be forced to move in any case. That’s why I need at least ONE sniper, but I’d like if that was not the case; as you don’t see so much aching for any other class, now do you ?

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489978]
I’m not saying a sniper is a bad thing. the last bad thing in a 26pt game.
But it ain’t all about sniper and / or electri-fryer.

told ya I wouldn’t give a step-by-step guide to that
not only because I’m too lazy for it, but also because I’m not as near as perfect as I want to be with these setups before writing this
I do lose games with double-taschman and co. (double taschman seems to be one of THE hardest setups beside double angela merci to play, but merci is just not my “thing”)
but it is NEVER like >75% vs 0% … more like <25% vs 0% , while I call a 75% win an overkill and a 25% a fair game.
and If I can do it (playing mainly snipers since the game launched in australia) every new player can do the same.

The damage ain’t better than average of 5 pt weapons \without melee
pumpington and stumpington both do 20 dmg/energy on melee and 10 dmg/energy on 2 distance
otto semi-auto has ~12 dmg/energy on 6 and 7 cells
spray n pray and hoo-hah both have ~11.X on far away, spray n pray getting better at close, hoo-hah weaker at close
electri fryer, with it’s 10.3 damage/energy has the weakest here on its BEST range
the ONLY - I repeate ONLY fantastic thing about it is its range. but it is also its weakness, coming close to this thing completely makes the damage even to a 4pt weapon.

[QUOTE=Beebi_Gun;489978]
Even though my initial goal is not to complain against the Fryer, but I’m only stating my experience.
If it is OP or not, that is a hard question to answer. It is certainly not UP and AVERAGE is very debatable.[/QUOTE]

I actually came with the intention to make it a 6pt weapon, but thinking about it in depth actually fully changed my mind.

to finish this post
just think about it
The fryer -> only good on range, mainly used by juan
juan lacks movability, kinda needs gus
standard team, with the main goal to fire everything in the first 2 turns to get a kill - but does this always work?


(Beebi_Gun) #15

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]No I got that
I think you totally mistook the game mechanic (or the whole logic part of my argue). I compared the pistol and the fryer on a certain range, you can’t - simply CAN’T - fully compare the pistol with the fryer - it is a 4pt weapon vs a 5pt weapon.
the simple truth is - the pistol is in average in its range as good as the fryer in the same range
and everything else is just the extra squad point.[/QUOTE]

No, YOU’RE wrong. I wasn’t the one who started to compare the Pistol with the Fryer, remember ? I think you need to reread the first posts to see who started comparing one with another. But if you’re too lazy to look up, let me do that for you:

Guess what ?? It is~~ Fryer’s lowest dmg = 24 vs Pistol’s MAX dmg = 24… hmmm?

Then you throw up the Pistol Dmg/Energy vs the Fryer Dmg/Energy comparison. I was merely talking about the sheer/nude/crude (you name it) lowest dmg the Fryer can throw; you come and compare the other factors of the weapon to swoop the tide in your favor, how come when it comes to me I cannot do the same ?? Could you, please, explain that ??

You tied in other factors, I simply did the same.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]compare the hoo-hah AR and the electri-fryer
hoo-hah AR AVERAGE dmg/energy on all 6 ranges 10.71
electri-fryer AVERAGE dmg/energy on all 9 ranges 9.1[/QUOTE]

No, I’m not comparing anything ! You fail to come to a consensus, regarding only the things you have to offer, everything said by another you think you can easily brush it off with factors that undeniably favor your position but do not consider the other’s. Even if your own argument has nothing plausible to add to make your point make subdue.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]the hoo-hah is quite steady on any range, while the dmg of electri-fryer drastically sinks to ~ 1/2

the fryer HAS 3 more range, but anything else would not be any kind of “special” SNIPER-rifle[/QUOTE]

True that. However, let me remind you that it is NOT special because of its commonness for being a 5 SP weapon. Y’know, one that you see as often as an AR~ completely replacing the Otto in that field.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]again, you simply cannot fully compare both weapons.
and even IF you do so - you should mention both sides
a fryer unit will “always” win against a pistol unit when starting a match
but when the match is already ongoing, and the pistol unit COMES close to the fryer guy, pistol will win.[/QUOTE]

Oh I can do that too ! But you see, you’re not going to get close to it EVER, so you’ll always lose.
See, what I did there ? I turned the scenario to my own liking to make it favor what I’m trying to prove here (only more blatantly than you did). I think you are very familiar with this.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]tell me, how to convince someone like you, only trying to win the argue with being sarcastic and one-sided
how to convince someone to play a “new” setup more than once in a MINDGAME if he fails the first time and blames the setup.[/QUOTE]

I. Did. Not. Fail. I do not consider it a failure, despite what you’re trying to make believe of me.
And even if I did, what’s the problem ??

You are making a ton of misconceptions here. I did not come here to complain about the Fryer > Snipers; but only someone who’s arguing for the sake of arguing would say that snipers aren’t highly more favorable than any other setup. It’s not even for me; you can tell for yourself, can’t you ?? These are facts. They are used a lot MORE, and I assure it’s not only because they look cool. I’m blaming the setup, because the setup is at fault. YOU cannot blame ME for viewing this way. See it in the game yourself; the results are splashed onto your face.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]I’m new to setups like 2xtaschman, suds gus, carlito gus, taschman kate…
I start 15 games with 8 “new” setups and win 14 of them.
I’m not bragging, other players do the same with the same result.
I’m just saying, it is NOT about the setup, only about your aproach and your “effort” While effort is Brainwork. You don’t want to put effort into a setup? You don’t want to do Brainwork in a Mindgame? than… why do you play a mindgame. If you don’t want to think too much, play something else.[/QUOTE]

Look, let me tell you something because I think you’re missing the quota here… Do you know what BALANCE is ?? Oh you didn’t know ? No, balance is not a hardcore player with an underpowered setup beating up an average player with an overpowered setup. Seriously, hah, you thought that was balance ? Now I know the confusion of this whole argument.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]When you did it, why don’t you do it again?
it is effective in many ways.[/QUOTE]

It is NOT effective. Shall I summon to you the meaning of balance again ? Just because you can do it, doesn’t mean it is balanced; it doesn’t mean it is steady. Otherwise, you’d see other setups rolling more often.

Truth is, other setups may always swing the other way and more generally make you fail terribly; while the sniper setup doesn’t require much effort put onto it to be remarkably reasonable.

Don’t worry, I know you use a sniper-build, as do I, as everyone for that matter (there is a reason for that); but I’m not saying a sniper-build does not require any skill at all, and whoever uses it is just skilless chump taking advantage of it. But that it requires a lot less effort ?? C’mon, don’t play with me…

I’ll concede you that. Maybe I’m not giving this a very good chance. But the fact that I have to even consider other setups a chance and perfect them while being completely torn apart by a setup that facilitates the game a bunch, kind of speaks for itself, doesn’t it ??

Mind you, when I say “I”, I’m not speaking only for myself. I’m speaking also for the opponents/friends I pick when they don’t have snipers-- So believe me when I say this is not me raging because I’m failing to overcome the sniper-build with something else. It is still fun to me, nonetheless. It just pains me that there is no other comfortable setup that anyone else can pick without being frustrated for being picked by the meta-setup (or however you call that thing).

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]I’m not saying a sniper is a bad thing. the last bad thing in a 26pt game.
But it ain’t all about sniper and / or electri-fryer.[/QUOTE]

Oh I never told you it is all about sniper and/or electri-fryer-- the game itself will do that for you. You don’t need me putting my nose into that.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]told ya I wouldn’t give a step-by-step guide to that
not only because I’m too lazy for it, but also because I’m not as near as perfect as I want to be with these setups before writing this
I do lose games with double-taschman and co. (double taschman seems to be one of THE hardest setups beside double angela merci to play, but merci is just not my “thing”)
but it is NEVER like >75% vs 0% … more like <25% vs 0% , while I call a 75% win an overkill and a 25% a fair game.[/QUOTE]

Again, I repeat, I don’t need a step-by-step tuto. I appreciate your concern, honestly, but it is not about that. I congratulate you too for trying other setups, perfecting them; improving with them and winning with them or tying with them, IDK. Sincerely, it is good that you do it and add some variety, as do I.

Here is another point you fail to meet. See, it’s almost impossible for two people to be exactly the same when playing~ one has to be superior to the other-- one’s approach and strategy has to be a counter to the another’s. If you put two average players, and one setup will favor one player over the other, then it is because it is not balanced. The fact that you win, just means you were superior, not that the game magically turned fair.

Say, it is similarly to the concept of pay-to-win; [I]"If you don’t want to acquire skills and just want to steamroll everything without putting any effort on it, then get this for $$-- if not, you’ll have to arse-kick yourself up to the top; spending time in useless struggles, killing yourself overtime; only to be able to be at the level of an average player and hardly beat a rookie with $$. BUT so only then you can call yourself-- HARDCORE~

P.S. Oh if you get a good player with $$, you’re screwed!"[/I]

^ This is how it works in this game. Just replace the $$ with the sniper-build, and whatever’s not $$ are the non-sniper builds. Yes, there you go, SPOT ON.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]The damage ain’t better than average of 5 pt weapons \without melee
pumpington and stumpington both do 20 dmg/energy on melee and 10 dmg/energy on 2 distance
otto semi-auto has ~12 dmg/energy on 6 and 7 cells
spray n pray and hoo-hah both have ~11.X on far away, spray n pray getting better at close, hoo-hah weaker at close
electri fryer, with it’s 10.3 damage/energy has the weakest here on its BEST range
the ONLY - I repeate ONLY fantastic thing about it is its range. but it is also its weakness, coming close to this thing completely makes the damage even to a 4pt weapon.[/QUOTE]

Once again, you’re obviously putting it in scenarios where it would favor the other weapons. That is why I never said the Fryer is OP~ albeit, it is a weapon from a very favored and more advantageous setup which is too good even for the weapons within the same.

Why !? You didn’t say anything verisimilar to justify that change of heart ?? You never connected any point to the other. The only thing you did was to put the Fryer in scenarios where other weapons are stronger and say it sucks because the other weapons win where they ARE supposed to win. Really, I don’t get you.

But that is exactly what defines it ! The problem with it is that it is also too common for a weapon of its usability. It’d need at least 6 SP. The dmg is not even that great, I can agree on that, which I DID if you truly wish to verify and go back to read my first posts.

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]juan lacks movability, kinda needs gus
standard team, with the main goal to fire everything in the first 2 turns to get a kill - but does this always work?[/QUOTE]

Ask yourself the question: how many times does it not work first, would you ?? If it doesn’t~ it’'s only because the opponent has one similar build for themselves. Thus, making one hesitant to advance with the plan.


(tinker) #16

quite funny you are

no need to totally rage

truth IS : your only argument (to weaken the fryer) is: the damage is too strong, the range too great. - and all this at 5 squad points

and I mean, the only argument !

watch closer, and you will see that the damage is JUST AS EVERYTHING on 5 squad points (actually the weakest damage on 5squad points**)
if you do not believe this, I will post the dmg chart (again)
now the range remains the ONLY good thing
and this becomes bad ( as the damage per energy in closer combat is worse than that of a pistol (4 squad points)and again, if you DO NOT believe this, I will post the dmg chart) when you pick and play good with anything else than a sniper with fryer AGAINST the enemy sniper with fryer

if you DO pick a sniper with fryer (as everyone else does) you will most likely lose against a more advanced player.

So why don’t you (and I don’t mean you as “beebi_gun”, I mean everyone reading this) pick any other setup and see that it HAS the potential to kill a usual juan-gus team.
being mainstream in a braingame never helped getting better than the best.


(Jerry-Rigs) #17

I’ve listened to people complain and argue about this or that being over powered and I have usually held the stance that it is the player that is over powered, not the weapon. I think that most any squad can be effective in the right hands. One can learn on their own the hard way or be shown by someone else who learned the hard way. I may be wrong, but I think Tinker is the deepest explorer of all things squirt. I’m not saying he knows everything or that he is always right but I think he puts in the time to figure out how to make a squad work where I would give up and move on when a squad wasn’t working.

I love the Fryer. It fits my style. It’s my favorite sniper rifle by far. I will pick it every time. Does that mean it’s OP?

If a weapon is popular (commonly used), somebody is going to say its OP and offer as evidence how frequently it is used.

Using that logic, it is time to reduce the number of squirts Gus has from 3 to 1. Any takers?


(Beebi_Gun) #18

[QUOTE=tinker;490272]quite funny you are

no need to totally rage[/QUOTE]

Lol you think I’m mad at you/at this ?? Or raging ?? THAT is what I’d call funny. Just so you know, I’m very cool when writing this.:tongue:
This but a civil argument for me; I’m not sure if you are used to ones of that kind. Just because I got more serious on my phrasing, does not mean I’m raging. Once more, you seem to think you know everything and are again jumping to conclusions about my person. I have not made this personal yet.

[QUOTE=tinker;490272]truth IS : your only argument (to weaken the fryer) is: the damage is too strong, the range too great. - and all this at 5 squad points

and I mean, the only argument ![/QUOTE]

Go find me a post where I said the dmg of the Fryer is too strong; then you can try again on your little-- attempt.

[QUOTE=tinker;490272]watch closer, and you will see that the damage is JUST AS EVERYTHING on 5 squad points (actually the weakest damage on 5squad points**)
if you do not believe this, I will post the dmg chart (again)
now the range remains the ONLY good thing
and this becomes bad ( as the damage per energy in closer combat is worse than that of a pistol (4 squad points)and again, if you DO NOT believe this, I will post the dmg chart) when you pick and play good with anything else than a sniper with fryer AGAINST the enemy sniper with fryer[/QUOTE]

And no thanks, you don’t have to put that “chart” up (again); I got your message on that. Unlike you, I know how to consider other’s points. Overall dmg/energy it is not too strong; you made sure to tell me that even though I never said the dmg of the Fryer was too high. For some reason, you keep that up your head.

Once again, I’m not sure why you keep rubbing on my face the fact that the Fryer (which you can only do 2-3 shots due to energy depending on toon) is weaker than the close range weapons IN THE RANGE where those weapons SUPPOSED to be better. I didn’t argue with you on that. So why the insistence ? Have you run low on comebacks ??

Thing is, there are many scenarios; and remembering that close range weapons, well, need you to get closer (which spends energy) you would also have to consider that perspective. Which you obviously don’t, and that’s what you’ve been doing so far. Putting it only on scenarios that favor what you want to prove, digressing all the other hypothesis. How is that supposed to be a solution ?

Is that your idea of an argument ??

What part of just because a hardcore play with an underpowered setup beats and average player with an overpowered setup you didn’t get ??

I never said a Fryer would give you instant wins; heck, I wasn’t even referring to the Fryer specifically. Can you please point out where did I say or imply that ? I said quite the opposite even in my last post. Now, I will have to assume that you are desperately trying to blur my points to suit your own argument.

Grasp this; the fact that it is possible does not equal it is fair.

[QUOTE=tinker;490272]So why don’t you (and I don’t mean you as “beebi_gun”, I mean everyone reading this) pick any other setup and see that it HAS the potential to kill a usual juan-gus team.
being mainstream in a braingame never helped getting better than the best.[/QUOTE]

It is true, good point. As said before, maybe I’m not giving this a very good chance. I’ve given it, it is fun, it is possible, but it is not steady, but I’m pretty confident I can make it more comfortable.

I cannot, yet, simply close my eyes and say that a certain setup is not favorable to the other. I feel like saying it; I am backing it up; it is my experience. I’d understand your stance if I was whining; matter of fact, I’m not, because I’m not even pissed of by it. I’m merely poking on the fact of an imbalanced mechanic of the game. If it is there, it is there.

So I don’t see where you’re trying to get. Everyone knows about the sniper-build’s advantages over the others. You need not go too far, it is here in this forum, alright ? Now that we can try to make that different by perfecting other setups to counter it; maybe even creating a new meta-one ? Possibly, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is imbalanced as of now.

I did not come here to argue. I came here for suggestions and solutions; and this is what I was seeking for, and still am so far. Now obviously these things always evolve to debates, but I’m used to have them as I they lead to consensus and maybe later solutions. One need to discuss to better understand these things. I believe, you’re the only one seeing himself threatened somehow.


@Jerry-Rigs: Thing is: I never ever complained about the Fryer being OP - tinker is just making it seem that way to look like I’m whining on it. It looks like he’s afraid I’m trying to get away “his” weapon. Hey, I use it too, why on earth would I want to do that ?? I’m just speaking of game balancing here and it was NOT about the Fryer. It was about the sniper-build.

The thing about the Fryer is that it is too good* for a 5 SP weapon that it makes it too common and completely overshadows Otto and is a very optimal replacement for the Botherer because of low cost energy/SP; making it a much more viable option than the other too; for its much easier to take advantage of. The gap g00n was referring in the beginning of this whole argument, y’know ?

*simplifying it for the sake of shortening the post.


(tinker) #19

spam , read on at “important” or the whole post

READ BEFORE READING ON : this is not to offend beebi_gun or anyone else, just to point out what my intention is. read the full post before trying to get what I am trying to say.

I automatically analyse the behaviour of people. well there is no such thing as mimic, body-language or your voice on written words
but there is so much more

all you did in this long post was:

  1. trying to make my arguments bad (and convince others) by making my “person” and aproach bad.
  2. trying to hide your anger, that came up because you PERSONALLY felt offended by one(or more) of my words and try to convince others that I AM A BAD PERSON because you somehow felt offended
    and as you might know, people won’t listen to the words of a “bad person”
  3. you are redundand and repeat over and over, that I am repeating my words (yeah, epic loop)
  4. actually negate everything you said about the damage of the weapon, fully concentrating on its range (and in fact the dmg there) since you gave no other (new) argument here (only trying to negate mine)

what I wanna tell you with THIS is: you don’t need to write a whole post on a personal offensive basis when it actually does not work. you say, you did NOT at least try to offend me or make me look bad? “tinker is just making it seem that way to look like I’m whining on it”
“It looks like he’s afraid I’m trying to get away “his” weapon.”
“This but a civil argument for me; I’m not sure if you are used to ones of that kind”
" Once more, you seem to think you know everything and are again jumping to conclusions about my person. I have not made this personal yet."

[In fact, I never said much about your person; just saying that the words you use and a sarcastic or offensive wordchoice in at least each 6th line is nothing else but offensive (and in this case raging)]

“I cannot, yet, simply close my eyes and say that a certain setup is not favorable to the other. I feel like saying it; I am backing it up; it is my experience. I’d understand your stance if I was whining; matter of fact, I’m not, because I’m not even pissed of by it. I’m merely poking on the fact of an imbalanced mechanic of the game. If it is there, it is there.”
ever had a talk with an angry friend, girlfriend or parent, that often point out that they are NOT angry? and what was the fact ?

try to be convincing with your facts and ONLY your facts. everything else is just spam for me.

and tbh I am pissed
because writing such a post is anything but pleasurable to me
but it happened before that people did not believe what I posted and not believe that I wrote FACTS (instead of “personal opinions”) before I actually showed them that THEY are personal and offensive (and this wayyyy more than me)

important

let’s try to just simulate a market game carlito /stumpington, gus /sprayNpray , commander /pistol
vs
gus /sprayNpray, Juan/ ELECTRI-FRYER , commander / pistol

actually I got 2 of them going on right now.
the thing is
this is an even match when both players know what to do.
the JUAN team will stay on distance and try to take 1 out by smart pushes.
the CARLITO team will walk a little around finding a blind spot to walk in the center and heal up again (probably took 1-2 seperat hits)
and there comes the showdown
if the Juan team did not take out 1 at this point(after they walked into the center) OR massivly put dmg on one or all 3 targets
the carlito team is close to a win.

up to 3 pushes,(up to 6 tiles) a artillery (1 tile) small dmg (pistol and or spray n pray) and after that 3 hits of the shotgun /still got 3 tiles to walk == up to 10 tiles so far
3x 73 = 219 + 1 indirect artillery hit = 258 + smaller hits from pistol, squirt or spray n pray (where 42dmg represents 2-3 of these hits)
and 1 will probably be taken out.
and if not, you either try to get really close to sniper or simply “wait” another turn( e.g. planting turret)
because the sniper team has a harder way up to 300 dmg, the 180 from juan(1 cell walk) and the artillery (50) is “just” 230
(and if you don’t think this, try to imagine why you don’t like facing 2x 300 health in 14pt with this and often focus on the commander, even if the other ones are closer/easier targets)

note: I do not say carlito is easier or better here
I just say: if the juan player does not take a good action in the first few turns, the tide of the battle might easily be changed.

same goes for a 1vs1 on carlito and juan
if the juan does not make at least 100 dmg before they gonna encounter, it will be hard.
as soon as the carlito is ON the juan, juans dmg output will go under 9.9 dmg per energy, while carlito will do at least one 20dmg/energy shot per turn.
juan runs 4, shots once, 48/55 dmg; carlito runs 4 shots once, 73, shots a second time after pushback 39
juan runs 2 shots twice 33/40 dmgx2 , carlito runs 2, shots once, runs another, shots once, shots once after pushback = 73+73+39
juan runs 1 shots 3 times 26/33 dmg x3, carlito runs 1, carlito may shot at least 3 times with 73 or 6x 39 dmg
you get the pattern [numbers not 100% correct, I am little tired]
so the dmg of juan is about 1/2 of carlitos dmg
no damage at the beginning and you will lose.
you have ghost, he walks away and puts a turret somewhere.

the match is EVEN, if both players know what to do.
1 failposition of juan-team and the game is 90% lost
1 failposition of carlito-team and the game is 60% lost (this is what I explained above with the dmg)

juan-team has easier positioning (WAYYY easier) and the upper hand at the start
carlito team needs a blind spot, positioning before, and may not take too much dmg before going into close combat.

you can apply this to at least 60% of “other” setups. 40% consist of these heavy teams like 2x angela, 2x taschman, 2x spud , 2x archie …

If you do still see any TOTALLY UNBALANCED fact about the fryer, tell me and I will try to convince you that it is just like anything else.
and if you don’t want to “think” more… why play a game like this if you don’t want to have a challenge?
people don’t start with chess or piano just to play the easy peaces or to play against easy bots … or do they?

and what jerry said (thanks for the nice words about me there)
I don’t think that gus is sooooo much of a thread. itself
I don’t say that I don’t totally love gus though

he just works fine with nearly all other toons
but I actually just waited for any kind of 300hp healer. (the dmg ON the healer(who can’t heal himself) is just too great otherwise)

I just think that if you leave him with 1 push he’s not as strong as kate anymore,

I actually think that if you give Otto a slight push, headshot a slight push, turrets and rocket launcher a slight push, and add a 5squad point maschine gun (minimax/biffo as 5squad points) [now, this is a long list, but the others have been mentioned before, they NEED a slight push]
it will be more balanced than totally reducing electri-fryer (which will probably start a chain reaction, starting with a lack of a good sniper rifle on 5 pts.)

BUT tbh. I begin to be very interested of how it would be like without the fryer in many games, would be fun for me being like the only one used to NOT using it in public AND tournaments. Just like any player thinks: a win still is a win. (while a lose might be a win as well)

with friendly regards
tinker


(Beebi_Gun) #20

[QUOTE=tinker;490373]spam , read on at “important” or the whole post

READ BEFORE READING ON : this is not to offend beebi_gun or anyone else, just to point out what my intention is. read the full post before trying to get what I am trying to say.

I automatically analyse the behaviour of people. well there is no such thing as mimic, body-language or your voice on written words
but there is so much more

all you did in this long post was:

  1. trying to make my arguments bad (and convince others) by making my “person” and aproach bad.
  2. trying to hide your anger, that came up because you PERSONALLY felt offended by one(or more) of my words and try to convince others that I AM A BAD PERSON because you somehow felt offended
    and as you might know, people won’t listen to the words of a “bad person”
  3. you are redundand and repeat over and over, that I am repeating my words (yeah, epic loop)
  4. actually negate everything you said about the damage of the weapon, fully concentrating on its range (and in fact the dmg there) since you gave no other (new) argument here (only trying to negate mine)[/QUOTE]

Let’s try approaching the first part of your post, shall we ??

“1. trying to make my arguments bad (and convince others) by making my “person” and aproach bad.”

Very well, if you’re going to start to throw out accusations, you need first to make sure you back up what you’re saying. How did I try to make your arguments bad ?? Ohh just because I countered with something else that didn’t go on accord with what you were saying ?? Again I ask you, do you know what a debate is ??

Other thing is, I’m talking to you, I’m not talking nor trying to show anyone else anything, I’m here to come to a consensus, with YOU, not whoever is watching in the sidelines. So please, specify how did I try to make you look bad ?

“2. trying to hide your anger, that came up because you PERSONALLY felt offended by one(or more) of my words and try to convince others that I AM A BAD PERSON because you somehow felt offended”

I’m not angry. You can only take my word for it, or insisting on the matter, it is, after all, up to you. As you said previously, you cannot tell from where you are so I’m very interested in seeing how can you be so certain that I’m angry, and if so, please do show. The only thing I’m seeing here is you desperately trying to make believe that I’m totally angry/raging; and that that is funny to you - your words, paraphrased; so that you can somehow make you look more credible. Once again I ask you, do you know what a debate is ?? Because I can tell you, you’re doing it wrong:

You are attacking a poster rather than the content or argument of their posts .

It should not matter how I’m feeling, anyway, you need only to address the content of my argument, and you’ve been avoiding it this whole time. After that, you keep hitting the key that I’m here to convince anyone of something, especially that you are a bad person. Please, stop doing it the wrong way:

You’re not backing up what you say with evidence of that, you’re only trying to make believe I’m attacking you, so you can feel a victim.

“3. you are redundand and repeat over and over, that I am repeating my words (yeah, epic loop)”

No, I’m not redundant.You are. Let’s see: I therefore offered a counter to what you were saying and instead of countering my counter, you proceed to repeat the same claim you offered in the beginning of the argument, which I countered, only that you refuse to give it attention because it does not suit you. That is redundancy.

“4. actually negate everything you said about the damage of the weapon, fully concentrating on its range (and in fact the dmg there) since you gave no other (new) argument here (only trying to negate mine)”

One thing is: You can say whatever you want about me negating anything. Truth is: I never really claimed anything on its damage, it is there, you need only to read. If you can prove it I said the dmg of the Fryer is too strong and therefore the Fryer is OP, then please do so.I’ve told you are doing it wrong.

You are attempting to alter my argument in order to suit yours. Disregarding what I have to say in the process; as being redundant; just because you cannot offer anything to tell it otherwise.

[QUOTE=tinker;490373]what I wanna tell you with THIS is: you don’t need to write a whole post on a personal offensive basis when it actually does not work. you say, you did NOT at least try to offend me or make me look bad? “tinker is just making it seem that way to look like I’m whining on it”
“It looks like he’s afraid I’m trying to get away “his” weapon.”
“This but a civil argument for me; I’m not sure if you are used to ones of that kind”
" Once more, you seem to think you know everything and are again jumping to conclusions about my person. I have not made this personal yet."
[/QUOTE]

What you are doing here is quoting chunks of my post that best suit what you’re trying to say without considering the context of it and what it follows next. In any case, tell me of it what you think it is offensive ??

> Because I think you’re making it look like I’m whining offends you ??
> Because it appears you are so defensive on a weapon that you do certainly use and don’t want it nerfed ??
> Because I implied that you are not used to have debates over this ??
> Or because I think you are jumping to conclusions about how I am, behave and think ??

Which is it, please ?

Oh but I can also do something similar, you know ? And show it to you how you did exactly:

[QUOTE=tinker;490158]tell me, how to convince someone like you, only trying to win the argue with being sarcastic and one-sided
how to convince someone to play a “new” setup more than once in a MINDGAME if he fails the first time and blames the setup.[/QUOTE]

I have not heard, at all, that being sarcastic is now considered an offensive form. Again you need not to attack how I do reply to your posts, I have not attacked you personally in any of them. If being sarcastic is the way I chose to express what I wanted to say, what does it make offensive on it ??

I am not being one-sided, only you see it that way. Because you told and presented the chart about the dmg/energy and I have no quarrels with that, no problems in agreeing with that, which is why I find weird that you keep up illuding yourself that I’m somehow saying the contrary. I have no quarrels with the dmg of the Fryer; I never said it was too strong. I said: its lowest dmg is +/- the standard of some weapons (e.g. Lowest Fryer = 24 / Highest Pistol = 24) - you throw the energy factor, I agree. I then throw the range factor (seeing this is what defines the weapon), you disregard it.

Are you sure you are the one who should feel offended ? I do not feel you offended me, I was only having a normal discussion with you until you started doing this whole drama.

[QUOTE=tinker;490373]“I cannot, yet, simply close my eyes and say that a certain setup is not favorable to the other. I feel like saying it; I am backing it up; it is my experience. I’d understand your stance if I was whining; matter of fact, I’m not, because I’m not even pissed of by it. I’m merely poking on the fact of an imbalanced mechanic of the game. If it is there, it is there.”
ever had a talk with an angry friend, girlfriend or parent, that often point out that they are NOT angry? and what was the fact ?

try to be convincing with your facts and ONLY your facts. everything else is just spam for me.[/QUOTE]

By your use of the word “spam”, either in the beginning, as of now, I will have to assume that you do not know what it means. You can try making this look offensive if you will, either. But I’m simply analyzing it and being incapable of fitting that in context.

As I said before, me being angry does change anything, as long as my posts are not in any way trying to be offensive; it is not distorting my view on my points, neither on yours. I continue to fail to connect what you are trying to prove with my supposed anger.

My fact is there, I’ve posted it, and I’ve not seen it countered. I’ve seen it contoured; that and disregarded because it went not on agreement with what you said. But that may be of the similarity of the words.

[QUOTE=tinker;490373]and tbh I am pissed
because writing such a post is anything but pleasurable to me
but it happened before that people did not believe what I posted and not believe that I wrote FACTS (instead of “personal opinions”) before I actually showed them that THEY are personal and offensive (and this wayyyy more than me)[/QUOTE]

To be honest, I don’t see what your problem is. I can only assume, and mark this well: assume, that you are not accustomed to debates; now either because you are not used to have your “facts” being questioned or you happen to think everything you say is true and/or always more important than what others do.

Why on earth would you pissed over something like this ?? Seriously, tinker, do you have any knowledge on debates ?? You would not be pissed if you did, honestly. It is obvious that in a debate you will offer a claim and defend your position and someone will come and tell you something different; then both will defend themselves until proven otherwise; or come to a consensus of some kind that neither are entirely wrong or right. Now, why did you post anything, to try to debate, if you were only going to get pissed by it ?? That’s not how debating works, unless you were not trying to debate, but simply showing that when you come in, what you say has to be accepted with no margin to be objected.

In your case, really, what you did was completely disregard my position, saying: “you only talk about that, you only talk about that… - (paraphrased)” therefore it is not valid. Not really, that’s not how it works either. I only use that because until now that position still remains unrefuted. I don’t understand, what you want me to do ?? To simply ignore my own position and embrace only what you have to say so that your point becomes easier to defend ?? Again, what kind of solution is this ?

Listen, I know these are your forums, barely anyone else comments on them. You are pro in this, you are the Master of this game; whenever someone posts a suggestion or something of the like, you are used to come and say what you will, then no one argues back against you. But then it comes me. And when I do not cede, you get pissed off, because, apparently, that is what you do when someone questions your “facts”; because your opinions/evidences should obviously be seen as absolute truths. Then you try to appeal to the crowd to make believe that you are full of pure intentions and that Beebi_Gun is the evil one trying to make yourself look bad. In fact, I repeat, I am here talking to you, not anyone else. Whoever is making off this a big dramatic show is you. Putting on big bold letters as sign to try to tell everyone what your intentions are. This is between you and me, other people are not called to it; and even if they are, I’d assume anyone accompanying this would know how to read, so you let them take their own conclusions upon what they read, and not try to mold their minds with a disclaimer in the beginning.

First, I don’t want to be offensive, but anyone is in their own right to assume what they want: To me, it’s been as if I’m “arguing with a kid over the internet”. You need not do this whole drama about: " this person is being mean/sarcastic" or " this person is trying to make me look bad/she’s a troll" - for that in itself makes you already look bad. I’m used to debating; I will [always] back off and admit when I’m clearly defeated, I will not argue for the sake of arguing with no reason behind it. I can also acknowledge someone else’s points and agree that they, in part, affect on the ones I’m presenting. It’s called consensus. I will not, and should never, nor anyone for that matter, disregard what the other is saying because otherwise I can’t prove/show my absolute victory, because I know the other point sort of conflicts with mine. We get to an interlock. You, on the other hand, are doing exactly that.

Secondly, we need to separate what we are trying to discuss here. We shall not start throwing everything to the soup. They are different matters, correlated yes, but different. You once again start throwing matters I did not argue over with you. You are good, you are a master in this; so you throw everything you know (as shown below in the second part of your post), in scenarios you imagine and picture, and swoop the tide to your own side through that. Notice that you only consider positions where it goes to your favor. If you want to discuss on a topic of why sniper-builds are not OP, then you should see to it that you create a new thread and I’ll be very glad to see what you have to offer. Which in any case, I agree that it can be countered, I just don’t agree it is easy as you make it seem. It is not a question of not wanting to think, because even with sniper, you have to think, I never claimed otherwise. But it is the effort you have to put in one, and the effort you have to put in all the rest. There is a very huge gap, mind you.

The discussion here is that most people think the Fryer should go 6 SP, because it is a very easy to use weapon, very easy to take advantage of, and has become very common because of it. You want a good 5 SP sniper ? Buff Otto. That’d make it more viable; but the Fryer does not compete with the 5 SP sniper-- it competes with the 6 SP sniper (Botherer); in the end, it even replaces it because how easy it is to use without costing too much. This said, making it 6 SP would still be the same weapon, only less common and still comparable to the Botherer.

I didn’t come here to argument against you-- I didn’t come here to end up in bad terms with you either-- even because that would be bad as I came here for suggestions and to gain more understanding, not to get involved in this drama you created. I just didn’t know you were like this; that you think the forums are yours and everyone that contradicts what you say is either noob, angry, inexperienced, etc and/or is trying to make you look bad (not sure if you have a reputation to maintain or something), for some very odd reason, is worthy of your attitude of being “pissed off”.

If you did not want to get involved in a debate, if you did not want to pass through the trouble of showing your own positions on the matter, if you did not want to carry the burden of proving it to the others; then once more I ask you, why did you bother yourself to answer !?

Seriously, stop making a tempest in a glass of water.

About the second part of the post:

I don’t want to disregard what you are saying. You, after all, worked on it to show it to me.

However, you keep putting on scenarios where no sane player would let their sniper go toe to toe with a toon with a shotgun; especially not one with 300 HP. If you’re going to do that, consider the energy wasted by the toon to get remotely close too, thus firing less and much weaker.

Also does not refute anywhere what we were initially arguing, at any event. The sniper-setup keeps still being more comfortable and steadfast. It is just this easy. I fail understanding this too: why do you keep telling me I don’t want to think, and should not be playing mindgames ?? < (See, this is where you make it look like I’m whining). I am not complaining about it, if anything, I could simply just roll one all the time either. But I’m pointing that there is an imbalance in that regard. It does not automatically mean I don’t want to think.

Always looking up to solutions anyway, so it is good to have a good look on the hypothesis.