Growing throughout a match


(tokamak) #1

One reason why W:ET and ETQW were so friggin addictive was the xp-race that kicked off at the start of each campaign. It gave the game a sense of urgency, but even more so, there was strategy. Xp was an actual resource you had to carefully gather and use in the right way in order to keep up with the rest.

MOBA’s like LoL, Dota and Smite have the same principle. Levelling is an integral part of the strategy. It’s even more prominent than in ET. Players can even get angry and cause a fuzz over dying too easily to your opponents granting them more xp. They call it ‘feeding’.

Not looking for such a huge weight to levelling but it illustrates how huge this aspect of a game can be. My brother and his friends are currently all caught up in Smite. When I asked him why this game was so addictive to them they said it was because of the levelling per match “Like in Wolfenstein” (they never played ETQW so they actually compared it to what I used to playw ith them) and the account wide voice-customisation. The latter sounds odd but voice-commands are huge in Smite so everyone wants the most fancy accents in order to stand out amongst the rest (in retrospect Brink kind of let all that talent go to waste by not making the voice collectible).

I know Anti already mentioned a team-wide levelling system.

This is not enough.

The levelling in Wolfenstein and MOBA’s is especially because it’s on the individual level. It’s perfect game-theory at play. It’s competition within the team in order to increase team-wide performance and beat the actual opponents.

If you’re unconvinced about how this principle is a literal game-changer, check out how more and more system use this form of collective competition. Like traffic lights in Toronto.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/geekquinox/smart-traffic-lights-game-theory-play-down-traffic-155547118.html?vp=1

I think Extraction needs to have this principle, individual, temporary levelling within one or several matches up and running. This is what sucks people in and keeps people playing. It’s not some gimmick, it’s an integral part of the type of tactical shooter SD is supposed to be making. You guys invented it, now don’t drop it.


(Glottis-3D) #2

How about a marathon-like leveling? Not just a 3maps-campaign ? If you keep playing on a server while maps are rotating - you keep upgrading, specialising more and more. All the unlocks that i liked in etqw usually were opened in the third - and the last - map. And it was sad to let them go in another campaign…


(attack) #3

0in nearly all leagues in et xp was disabled.
the reason is simple i,it can be a very big advantage on some maps to def first or second.
braundorf as example .the difference between 2 or 4 nades is enormus.
also let it be comebacks much harder.
for an attack i could see it maybe work but im more a fan of skilldifferense not xp or smth like that.
only as an fact…


(shaftz0r) #4

yeah i was gonna say, xp is disabled in comp and is basically irrelevant in a pub, except for fragging


(Rex) #5

Yeah, for the public heros whose only goal was to get the highest amount of xp during a match to feel ‘pro’ when they secured themselves a spot in the highest ranks on a random stats ladder. LOL!

Please what? How the heck was it a strategy to get xp? This “carefully gathering” was called farming or just playing. You couldn’t ‘use it the right way’, because you just unlocked it and that’s it.

MOBA examples…:rolleyes:

Cool, your brother played SMITE. I played CS:GO recently.

That was already planned.

lol, no! Neither nor.

Yep. :frowning: The leveling system in QW was pretty bad.


(montheponies) #6

This is crutch. Pure and simple.

Amongst one of the many things i detested about W:ET.


(INF3RN0) #7

I think Dota has a much more fair progressive system out of most MOBAs, but I don’t think it belongs here. Another thing to note is that CS economy works quite well, but that’s involving SnD and multiple rounds. That said, I think a lot of MOBA content can be adopted as long as it is implemented in a completely fair way and made completely separate from raw stats. If both teams are given equal opportunity and the main variables of importance come down to how and when these things are used rather than who gets them first- then that’s great. I also think that any unlocks should be skill based or debuffs or special one time use abilities- NEVER flat-stat boosts or OHK abilities.


(Mustang) #8

One of the things that regularly annoys, no thanks.


(Leinahtan) #9

League of Legends did a very good job with regard to this. If you have it so you can only do ranked once you hit the maximum level, then the playing field is fair when people want to play the game and get ranked. Until that point, the game is more of a casual fun experience. It also acts as a learning curve - no early stats means you can jump in right away and more content and decisions unlock as you progress.

The leveling system in QW/Wolf were poorly implemented.

Say you unlock a “backpack” at Lvl 5 with a 2x1 slot. At 10, it expands to 2x2, at 15 3x2, etc. to 30 with a 3x5. You fill it up with minor “boosters”, such as +5 starting Health, faster reload, better movement speed, faster recovery after being shot, etc. And these bags can be equipped to any character, therefore no need to individually customize every character (brink gun customization, I loath the mass micro management there). And when the backpacks unlock, you get, say 2 or 3 of them to fill up - and you can purchase more for money.


(tokamak) #10

That makes sense because the xp curve in W:ET is intended to last for 1 to 3 hour sessions of playing. XP growth in W:ET was inherently unsuitable for leagues. It was a huge pub thing.

However, it’s even a bigger thing in MOBAS and the professional leagues have it enabled. It’s not a gimmick, it’s part of the tactical landscape of the game.

Extraction competitive game will be based on stopwatch. The solution is simple, reset xp when switching sides and make the xp-curve interesting enough to make it relevant within the span of about 20 minutes.

@Inferno: Yeah Counterstrike’s economy is also growth within matches. What’s the most interesting is that this system relies part on consumables and resets on death. Love it.

The catch here is that a match is fought in 10 rounds or something. Balancing all that in extraction without slowing down (there’s no preparation times).


(shaftz0r) #11

you also have to buy weapons in cs, which relates to strategy over the course of the entire match. every team has eco rounds where they only buy pistols ect and its really important on high levels of play


(spookify) #12

There was XP in ET and RTCW? I was never not at the top of a pub list but I never did OBJ. I just raged peoples faces! Who cares about XP or OJB in pubs!


(.Chris.) #13

News flash, you’re not everyone…


(spookify) #14

Don’t hate the player… How’s that saying go?

Skill will always rule and always rank top in pub server XP. I am just saying a skilled person will get top XP without even trying for XP…


(tokamak) #15

Yeah that would be a good indicator of an adequate system.


(Rex) #16

tokamak you need to make a point, I mean give some examples what you want. Currently you are only stating how the XP systems in various games are.


(tokamak) #17

Well I’m a bit hesitant to go into the specifics because people tend to zoom into details and make them unworkable. The main point is that growth throughout the match is a big essential factor in many big online games, especially F2P’s. The reason is that people love to collect, love the progress and it gives them a score to beat every time they start again.

SD’s answer is team-wide progress but that really doesn’t tickle the gamer’s amygdalas in the same way individual progress does.

Anyway if you want more detail:

  • Match growth is a way of upgrading your avatar throughout the match. You start from nil and build from there. When the match (or the set of three) finishes, you lose any of the temporary upgrades.
  • Growth can be simple linear, just different tiers of upgrades that are handed out automatically. Or a player can chose, like a tree. The former is easier to implement the latter is more alluring and gives a player more the idea that what he’s doing actually matters, something Extraction desperately needs.
  • Upgrades aren’t as huge as in a MOBA. I really am thinking about 10% health upgrades, or an extra clip, or regeneration.
  • Upgrades can be character specific and appropriate to the role it fills.
  • Individual growth can work alongside team-wide growth. These two don’t really interfere with each other.
  • Temporary growth should be tied to the xp accumulation. It’s the same thing. Direct rewards that can be used straight in the match give the player more accurate feedback of what is expected of them. Of course you don’t lose the xp at the end of the match, just the upgrades you gained through it. That permanent xp can be used on stuff outside the matches, like new characters or novelty items.

I hope that clarifies, any questions are welcome.


(attack) #18

[QUOTE=tokamak;485820]Well I’m a bit hesitant to go into the specifics because people tend to zoom into details and make them unworkable. The main point is that growth throughout the match is a big essential factor in many big online games, especially F2P’s. The reason is that people love to collect, love the progress and it gives them a score to beat every time they start again.

SD’s answer is team-wide progress but that really doesn’t tickle the gamer’s amygdalas in the same way individual progress does.

Anyway if you want more detail:

  • Match growth is a way of upgrading your avatar throughout the match. You start from nil and build from there. When the match (or the set of three) finishes, you lose any of the temporary upgrades.
  • Growth can be simple linear, just different tiers of upgrades that are handed out automatically. Or a player can chose, like a tree. The former is easier to implement the latter is more alluring and gives a player more the idea that what he’s doing actually matters, something Extraction desperately needs.
  • Upgrades aren’t as huge as in a MOBA. I really am thinking about 10% health upgrades, or an extra clip, or regeneration.
  • Upgrades can be character specific and appropriate to the role it fills.
  • Individual growth can work alongside team-wide growth. These two don’t really interfere with each other.
  • Temporary growth should be tied to the xp accumulation. It’s the same thing. Direct rewards that can be used straight in the match give the player more accurate feedback of what is expected of them. Of course you don’t lose the xp at the end of the match, just the upgrades you gained through it. That permanent xp can be used on stuff outside the matches, like new characters or novelty items.

I hope that clarifies, any questions are welcome.[/QUOTE]
guys rly we havent get the merces balanced ,how the hell you want balance a lvl system than.
perks will anyway follow in future(which is a bad idea in point of view)
let SD finish the basics,they have already more problems than it should be.
SD isnt EA .so we cant get everything to work or this will be the new Duke nukem forever


(Rex) #19

[QUOTE=tokamak;485820]Well I’m a bit hesitant to go into the specifics because people tend to zoom into details and make them unworkable. The main point is that growth throughout the match is a big essential factor in many big online games, especially F2P’s. The reason is that people love to collect, love the progress and it gives them a score to beat every time they start again.

SD’s answer is team-wide progress but that really doesn’t tickle the gamer’s amygdalas in the same way individual progress does.

Anyway if you want more detail:

  • Match growth is a way of upgrading your avatar throughout the match. You start from nil and build from there. When the match (or the set of three) finishes, you lose any of the temporary upgrades.
  • Growth can be simple linear, just different tiers of upgrades that are handed out automatically. Or a player can chose, like a tree. The former is easier to implement the latter is more alluring and gives a player more the idea that what he’s doing actually matters, something Extraction desperately needs.
  • Upgrades aren’t as huge as in a MOBA. I really am thinking about 10% health upgrades, or an extra clip, or regeneration.
  • Upgrades can be character specific and appropriate to the role it fills.
  • Individual growth can work alongside team-wide growth. These two don’t really interfere with each other.
  • Temporary growth should be tied to the xp accumulation. It’s the same thing. Direct rewards that can be used straight in the match give the player more accurate feedback of what is expected of them. Of course you don’t lose the xp at the end of the match, just the upgrades you gained through it. That permanent xp can be used on stuff outside the matches, like new characters or novelty items.

I hope that clarifies, any questions are welcome.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, you described to what we are already used to from past SD games. I can sign all of that.


(tokamak) #20

Shallow games are easier to balance than deep ones yes.