the current state of the spread system

(shaftz0r) #1

i dont usually bother with posts like this mainly because this is a beta, and there’s a lot of balancing that needs to be done across the board, but after a few weeks of playing this current round of tweaks, i have to say, this is the worst shooting has felt since ive been playing.

Most smg side weapons have less recoil and spread than many of the main weapons. couple that with higher rof, and they’re better than most main weapons in medium ranged fights.

sawbones smg is now almost completely useless after the first 5-10 rounds at med range. People are now overplaying pheonix because of this fact.

skyhammer’s rifle is also almost completely useless now. maybe its just me, but i cant hit anything after the first few rounds. ive been close-med range with someone not moving at all, and watched bullets fly around his head like they’re trying to avoid a headshot. whereas other times in the exact same scenario, i triple the head. that kind of randomness is unacceptable

The merc with the obscenely high rof, and nade (sry i cant remember his name) can shoot across the map with burst fire, and decimate. how does this make any sense when i cant be bothered to fight someone med-far with an smg?

everything just feels wrong right now. recoil and spread need to discussed heavily so that there is a clear path forward with balancing. it feels so chaotic right now, and since you can only pick 3 mercs, its really difficult to adapt to the situation in front of you. its severely limiting.

(INF3RN0) #2

If there’s a weapon control system that’s trying to be enforced, I’d appreciate a detailed explanation on what we should be trying. I don’t mind that style of system, but it’s hard to pull off in an enjoyable way. Early on there was always the problem with it only working properly in 1v1s and not in the bigger scheme- though even then hold fire spraying beat out tap/bursting anyway due to the nature of high RoF. I’ll have to play more during break to really test stuff though.

(BMXer) #3

random = bad
SD seems back on the path to Brinkness. Spread was one of the biggest problems with Brink. I feel like all the lessons learned by that horrible game are being forgotten by the devs. Remember Brink, remember W:ET, use brainz.

(Rex) #4

I’m the first supporter of this thread and I absolutely agree with shaftz0r! (could have been my thread…)

Nah, it’s not only you. I’m playing Skyhammer a lot and have the same problem. No chance in a close range fights.

[QUOTE=BMXer;482508]random = bad
SD seems back on the path to Brinkness. Spread was one of the biggest problems with Brink. I feel like all the lessons learned by that horrible game are being forgotten by the devs. Remember Brink, remember W:ET, use brainz.[/QUOTE]

BMXer summed it up very well! You tend to lean towards the Brink direction with this kind of randomness again. :mad:

A few days we had a IRC discussion about this topic so let me bring up a few things which we discussed:

One reason why Sawbonez has even more spread now (:eek:) was, that he shouldn’t be a good killer compared to other classes. I do understand these balancing reasons, but the way you’re doing it is very wrong. Now here is my question: Why don’t you make the medic a good killer, but the others even better? Keeping the difference, but making it a lot easier for the other classes to frag.
And stop comparing your game to games nowadays where tracking based aim doesn’t matter, because a footshot can cause death. Compare the spread and recoil to RTCW/ET/QW please. Thanks.

The current state of spread and recoil is horrendous and it makes me really mad to see that a bad state got even worse (Sawbonez) now. Too much spread and recoil only punish the good aimers and make tracking based aim harder.
Many say “recoil is ok, I don’t mind if it even gets higher”, but it’s still sh!t! Do you guys remember your old games where it was hardly noticeable? Where is the skill curve with random elements like spread?

In general: There should be distinction between the mercs and weapons, but keep the spread and recoil down to an absolute minimum!

Has been said so many times, I’m really disappointed that you don’t want to see what can ruin your game.

(Glottis-3D) #5

THe favorite answer to spread displeasure is ‘there is a threshold in spread where there will be no use for snipers’ that is ‘we cannot make all weapons as precise as sniper rifles’

but i always ask ‘why dont you think that there is a low-end threshold, where weapons become useless’ and they never answer.

the way to solve a problem is to be reasonable.

  1. differ spread, ok…but in reasonable limits. every weapon must be playable. aim based that is.
  2. a main instrument to differ weapon - damage, recoil, rof

-upd-

SD, lets talk about this… this is important!

(chippy) #6

Yes.

Can’t agree with that, Skyhammers gun is what works best for me except for the bopbopbopbop MG.

(Kendle) #7

I’m afraid I’m not ready to jump on the “OMG spread has ruined the game” band-wagon just yet. I’ve had a bit of time away from the game, played the last few nights for maybe 4 - 5 hours total and tbh I find the latest patch the best yet in terms of gun-play.

I’m all for reducing spread, if indeed it’s that’s big an issue, but I find burst firing seems to help more than it used to, and the increased head-shot multiplier (not sure if that was last patch or the one before?) means I seem to be hitting what I aim at and damaging what I hit, which is the crude baseline by which I judge most shooters.

Having said that, there’s no argument in my book for increasing (or even having) spread.

If you want to retain the distinction between Snipers and SMG’s, for example, increase the damage fall-off for the SMG, or reduce it for the Sniper (no idea what either are set to at the moment). Increase Sniper damage (a single shot from a powerful rifle should kill you). Reduce RoF for Snipers, reduce clip size, increase reload time / recoil etc. if you’re concerned about having a OHK weapon in the game. Add recoil to SMG’s / AR’s (as long as it’s predictable recoil, i.e. straight up, not random side to side). There are many things that can be done to balance weapons before giving any of them spread.

But at the end of the day having different guns means different techniques are needed to achieve balance. I’d rather spread wasn’t one of them, but if not other things need to be considered, like recoil, which I imagine we’d all bitch about just as much if was too great.

(shaftz0r) #8

i just dont enjoy the shooty pewpew aspect of the game any more. i literally just joined a server and was enjoying playing a man down and being a combat medic, until i find myself in mid range firefights, hitting absolutely nothing, yet im tracking my opponent perfectly. burst fire seems like a good idea until you’re dead as soon as you stop firing, but than my next fight, aiming the exact same way, quad dinks. makes no sense at all. I have no problem adjusting my style of play to make up for the shortcomings of a weapon, but if my only option is extremely close range fighting, why would i bother with an smg? might as well just shotgun my way to the hall of fame of badness

(Protekt1) #9

I’ve been thinking about making my own thread about spread as well but held off cause I haven’t been playing as much lately. This is the biggest issue in the game for me, besides performance which is expected since its still early beta product.

Here are a few things I don’t like about the spread system.

Movement already starts your gun at shot 2 or 3 degrees of spread. I think this only adds to the randomness a good amount because even your first shot isn’t dead on depending on the range. Most of the time when you are standing still you’ll be in ironsight anyway. I think reducing that initial accuracy penalty just because you’re running or strafing could help.

Jumping causes too much randomness. First I’ll say I am not against having penalties while jumping and I don’t even want you to put snipe jumping back in, that is too powerful for obvious reasons. What I do want to see is my accuracy not going to -150% just because I had to jump over a small object during or just before a gunfight. I’d rather see my initial accuracy stay the same but spread faster because I fired from the air and thus have poor control making the next shots increasingly more random. I think it would help a lot if you could get at least one accurate shot off while jumping. This wouldn’t apply to snipers since their hipfire is already wide. I’m not sure how I’d approach ADS jumping.

Now this is where my feedback is mostly based on dated gameplay, I have only put in like 30-60 mins on the latest patch but from that I did not conclude differently.

Increase accuracy and reduce max spread values. I still feel like spread values are too high in the game. I think making weapons have more initial accuracy and then having different spread gain rates is a good idea with different (but generally smaller) max spread values. I think this is the hardest part about weapon balance. So it would be foolish for me to go into too much specifics.

Lastly, a word about recoil. I think the recoil system is okay. It could still use improvement and I think there are better systems out there. Perhaps something like BF4 should be used which has more recoil on the first few shots and less over time. Then they have attachments that can reduce the first shot recoil, but reduces (increases spread) of the shots afterwards. Perhaps something like that or something that is a little bit more predictable than the current system would work best for xt. Again, this is mostly based on old info, I know recoil was reduced and it seemed much more manageable. But maybe recoil should be returned but made more predictable. Anyway, I’m sure I’ll refine this opinion when I get more game time into the latest patch.

(Violator) #10

Pretty well agree with this (especially Increase accuracy and reduce max spread values), except I’ve found Skyhammers main wep pretty good at short / medium range. Stoker on the other hand is spreading all over the shop at all ranges and can’t hit a barn door with it :(. Arty’s semi-auto was an interesting idea but is really reserved for the super-accurate aimers (not me :)), was unable to get a single frag with it when I tried it one match.

Don’t really have a problem with recoil, feels about right to me on most weapons. In Q2 for example the only spread was the vertical recoil of the MG + the spread of the SG/SSG pellets. The other weapons fired exactly where you aimed, I miss those simple times :).

(shaftz0r) #11

i honestly have no real issue with recoil in general as long as it semi predictable and has a skill curve thats controllable

(prophett) #12

I really hate artys “new” main. I played him 95% of the time prepatch. Since then I have only played him for about an hour or so (long enough to know I don’t like it).

If the intent was to limit arty - mission accomplished (his artillery was already useless).

Other than that I don’t really have a problem with skyhammer or bbq.

(fubar) #13

Yeah… I think your problem is that you just can’t aim. Skyhammer’s AR is incredibly accurate, 90% of the time I don’t even bother to ADS with it, because of the penalties and no real benefits. RtCW’s MP40 got three times the spread, if not more. The only thing slightly annoying is the weird recoil and knockback, but spread? Hell no.
Also mouse feels utterly weird in xT, very floaty, acceleration like. Don’t have this in any other games.

(INF3RN0) #14

I’d like to see smaller clip sizes and higher accuracy. Spread bloom punishes spray and pray types, but it also sets hard limits on everyone. I’d rather be punished for poor accuracy by expending my clips more often or having recoil that ramps up in intensity over time when hold firing. Spread bloom weapon control makes a lot more sense in slower paced SnD games, where as it doesn’t quite fit the fast paced action nature of xT. It’s not a bad idea to enforce penalties and increase the mastery cap on weapon proficiency, but spread is not a long term solution to that problem and does more harm than good imo.

(Smooth) #15

I’m up for testing a slight overall spread reduction (say 10%) and increasing recoil a little to compensate.

I’ll also throw in slightly different jumping penalties as well. You won’t get this in the very next update, but the one after that :slight_smile:

I would like to say that we are very, very close to W:ET and ET:QW values, and miles away from anything else. We also have other things to contend with now, like faster (modern) rates of fire and supporting ironsights (no they won’t just go away!) which means we can’t go too far before hip-fired weapons become all too-similar and overly deadly at all ranges.

For comparisons sake:

W:ET - MP40/Thompson - Min/Max Spread: 0.4/2.8 degrees (don’t have RTCW values to hand but it’s higher than this)
ET:QW - Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.5 degrees
Brink - Gerund AR - Min/Max Spread: 1.9/7.0 degrees

XT - Current Average Auto SMG - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.2 degrees
XT - Current Average Auto Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 0.5/2.7 degrees

(n4ts) #16

[QUOTE=Smooth;482553]I’m up for testing a slight overall spread reduction (say 10%) and increasing recoil a little to compensate.

I’ll also throw in slightly different jumping penalties as well. You won’t get this in the very next update, but the one after that :slight_smile:

I would like to say that we are very, very close to W:ET and ET:QW values, and miles away from anything else. We also have other things to contend with now, like faster (modern) rates of fire and supporting ironsights (no they won’t just go away!) which means we can’t go too far before hip-fired weapons become all too-similar and overly deadly at all ranges.

For comparisons sake:

W:ET - MP40/Thompson - Min/Max Spread: 0.4/2.8 degrees (don’t have RTCW values to hand but it’s higher than this)
ET:QW - Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.5 degrees
Brink - Gerund AR - Min/Max Spread: 1.9/7.0 degrees

XT - Current Average Auto SMG - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.2 degrees
XT - Current Average Auto Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 0.5/2.7 degrees[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the comparison smooth, I always wanted to know that actually.
Cheers

(Seanza) #17

The power of suggestion.

I personally don’t find any real problem with spread, maybe because I don’t pay attention to it. If I’m not hitting, I readjust my aim until I do. Since the post about the increased spread and recoil, people have been whining. I think the biggest mistake that was made for the patch notes was that the values of which it was increased by was not disclosed. People just assumed it was a crazy amount.

Hopefully people realise it’s not as bad as their mind seems to think :smiley:

(Humate) #18

I would like to say that we are very, very close to W:ET and ET:QW values

Could you compare the rate of fire statistics for us as well? :slight_smile:
Thanks.

(spookify) #19

[QUOTE=Smooth;482553]I’m up for testing a slight overall spread reduction (say 10%) and increasing recoil a little to compensate.

I’ll also throw in slightly different jumping penalties as well. You won’t get this in the very next update, but the one after that :slight_smile:

I would like to say that we are very, very close to W:ET and ET:QW values, and miles away from anything else. We also have other things to contend with now, like faster (modern) rates of fire and supporting ironsights (no they won’t just go away!) which means we can’t go too far before hip-fired weapons become all too-similar and overly deadly at all ranges.

For comparisons sake:

W:ET - MP40/Thompson - Min/Max Spread: 0.4/2.8 degrees (don’t have RTCW values to hand but it’s higher than this)
ET:QW - Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.5 degrees
Brink - Gerund AR - Min/Max Spread: 1.9/7.0 degrees

XT - Current Average Auto SMG - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.2 degrees
XT - Current Average Auto Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 0.5/2.7 degrees[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the comparison Smooth! I love that we are close to W:ET!
Combined with the Higher ROF but Minus the much small High Boxers + Whatever the Damages are + Fall OFF Ranges, +/- Recoil = what we have now.
Please adjust damages, maybe make the hit-boxes a little smaller do to more accurate weapons and change fall off damage ranges.

Very Close Range it should be a toss up between 6 HS Phoenix and a 3 HS AR who ever its the head wins. It has gone both ways for me. Both are and should be insta kills that close. It all depend on who has the angle right.

Phoenix gun feels perfect right now please dont nerf him! Maybe Tweak his fall off damage a little so he doesnt have a lot of range but leave his spread and put Sawz back too.

Also please dont go too crazy with recoil. Recoil should really be noticeable on the monster guns… Slight recoil on AR and SMG’s but nothing that you need to actually stop shooting to adjust like BF3…

I dont know what else to say. I love Phoniex right now… I dont get pissed off at the game if I die! I get pissed off at myself! And thats how it should be… Good rule to have. If I dont land 4 to 5 HS on a good player I am dead especially going against a player that can shoot an AR well.

(spookify) #20

[QUOTE=Smooth;482553]I’m up for testing a slight overall spread reduction (say 10%) and increasing recoil a little to compensate.

I’ll also throw in slightly different jumping penalties as well. You won’t get this in the very next update, but the one after that :slight_smile:

I would like to say that we are very, very close to W:ET and ET:QW values, and miles away from anything else. We also have other things to contend with now, like faster (modern) rates of fire and supporting ironsights (no they won’t just go away!) which means we can’t go too far before hip-fired weapons become all too-similar and overly deadly at all ranges.

For comparisons sake:

W:ET - MP40/Thompson - Min/Max Spread: 0.4/2.8 degrees (don’t have RTCW values to hand but it’s higher than this)
ET:QW - Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.5 degrees
Brink - Gerund AR - Min/Max Spread: 1.9/7.0 degrees

XT - Current Average Auto SMG - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.2 degrees
XT - Current Average Auto Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 0.5/2.7 degrees[/QUOTE]

I have a question with the Auto Assault Rifle the Spread is crazy close to W:ET yet that is the worst gun for me… Which Character uses that gun again? Stoker or Sky? I just at both of them for some reason… Is there something else in play because it sure doesnt feel close to W:ET as the numbers would suggest?