DB Locomotion Design Motivations


(MrEd) #1

To start let me state that DB has two stages for it’s locomotion design & implementation:

  • basic locomotion - ‘baby learns to walk’: standing, crouching & simple jumping.
  • advanced locomotion - ‘man learns to fly’: anything else.

Our main motivations are:

  • Reflect player intentions with immediacy.
  • Try not to take control away from players.
  • Maintain a good conservation of momentum.
  • Simple to pick up; hard to master.
  • Balanced for both the 1st person player and any player trying to track their movement in 3rd person.

Currently we’re at the stage where basic locomotion is sufficient. Some of the most important things we’ve taken care of so far include signalling player states in 1st and 3rd person, making sure the animations can transition quickly and freely between states while not flipping around like a possessed tentacle monster. Things we still need to improve with basic locomotion are signalling the movement intentions rather than just reflecting the current state and ensuring the gameplay values match the level collision for a smooth experience.

Over the coming months of we will continue to polish this basic locomotion while also starting to look at the advanced stages of locomotion. There are no firm plans what moveset or tweaks this will include but all decisions will be taken to reflect the motivations as set out above.

There has been a lot of talk already about DB locomotion but I’d like to respond to a couple of points specifically.

I can categorically say the decisions about locomotion in DB are not being driven primarily by the design doc of CoD or BF3. From an animation perspective it’s important to ensure our quality compares favourably to our competitors but that is all.

For the most part this statement holds true with the design motivations for DB locomotion. Brink’s SMART locomotion suffered from lacking immediacy, locking the player into moves and failing to convey momentum fluidly enough. W:ET met all of the rules above, for the most part. However, there is a fundamental problem with strafe jumping.

While doing a great job of providing high levels of mastery, the level of information required to convey exactly what strafe jumping is and the actions required to perform it are too convoluted to be considered a simple to learn movement mechanic. It is not a move that a player can attempt to understand by simply competing against another player on a server without a full description of what is going on from an external source. Indeed it is such a bizarre move and so breaks the other rules of locomotion in almost every game it does feature in that it is often seen by the uninitiated as a hack or cheat. As such strafe jumping as a move in and of itself is not under consideration for inclusion in Dirty Bomb.

As such we are considering other options, which as DarkangelUK put it, offer ‘a decent level of movement that really didn’t require much training to take advantage of, then those of us that want to take it further usually can, which means they cater for both side of ‘advanced’ fence.’


(spookify) #2

Great Information I look forward to testing these movements throughout the process. It will also be interesting to see how SD tweaks the guns to reflect these movements. Plus not to mention the maps, curbs, stairs and objects that can hinder movement and create a bob or stop. Keep it up I really enjoyed playing in a USA server last night and reminded me of the huge potential of this game!


(acQu) #3

Can’t understand the arguments against strafe-jumping, as these same core mechanics were an integral part of your past games and, i would say, even a monumental pillar of their success.

To me it seems you draw the right conclusions from the wrong assumptions, namely you envision a new, MMS (Modern Military Shooter) tainted, generation of FPS playerbase and treat it as an undynamic portion of market data you only draw from that specific niche of FPS.

You shoot yourself in the foot from my perspective with these arguments against strafe-jumping and kinda alienate yourself. This, to me, was always a major part of the profile you developed in the past, now you say this won’t work anymore …

Well, of course, these are only assumptions and my perspective. I really can’t understand any of the arguments aka i do not think they are right.


(Kendle) #4

We have to remember that previous SD titles had strafe-jumping because it was already a feature of the engine. The Unreal engine doesn’t provide that feature, so if we wanted SD to add it we would have to justify the work it would take to do so.

On that basis I’m not sure what the arguments FOR strafe-jumping are. Pretty much no modern FPS has it, and most of the most successful FPS’s ever made don’t either. What’s more, as MrEd has stated it’s not going to be added anyway, I propose we drop the subject and help them improve movement mechanics in line with their stated aims.


(acQu) #5

Have no problem with dropping the “request” part of it. I am not arguing for implementation, i just can’t understand the arguments.

And even if you would have to grab an external source to get to know more, what is wrong with that? PS2 has at least 10 intro tutorial videos on their site, i would count that as an “external source”. Imo wrong factor and heavily overweighted in the equation.

I kinda see it as pretty basic that if you add something which is only semi-intuitive (again, this does not have to be bad), then i would make up tutorial videos like in PS2 or add an introduction arena inside Dirty Bomb, with a mercenery explaining stuff to you and most importantly, think about it positively, that you have stuff like this in the game, which takes more than one sentence to explain …

To me it looks like an underlying principle not just spanning strafe-jumping, but a whole set of other features, where the result is: “meh not add it, too complicated for the kiddies of today” …

Also: yes, i understand time and resource constraints, but these were not mentioned. Maybe they play a major role in the arguments as well …


(Violator) #6

I’m not so concerned about strafe-jumping (it was fun in Q2 / ET using it for trick jumps though, but it was a bug originally iirc), but adding the ability to bunny hop would be a big plus, currently after two jumps all forward momentum is lost which is my main bugbear atm.


(Breo) #7

I see DB as a “realistic” shooter because it has no advanced weapons, a near future setting (2020), the characters don’t have a super hero suit and the maps are based on real locations. So sprinting should be the fastest way to travel.

Actually it doesn’t make sense that you need to use multiple keys + mouse (strafe-jump) to gain the maximum speed.


(Anti) #8

[QUOTE=acQu;440696]Have no problem with dropping the “request” part of it. I am not arguing for implementation, i just can’t understand the arguments.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry you don’t understand our argument, we’ve posted a lot of stuff to try and explain our concerns and our reasoning why, I’m not sure there is any other way we can put it :frowning:


(acQu) #9

[QUOTE=Breo;440707]I see DB as a “realistic” shooter because it has no advanced weapons, a near future setting (2020), the characters don’t have a super hero suit and the maps are based on real locations. So sprinting should be the fastest way to travel.

Actually it doesn’t make sense that you need to use multiple keys + mouse (strafe-jump) to gain the maximum speed.[/QUOTE]

W:ET is about the same. It is based on a real world setting, with real humans, real weapons, no monsters, no extra planets, just earth. Guess what is in there :slight_smile:

Well, i explained myself as well. I think there is something wrong in the equation and the way things are judged, how much weight you give to them, etc. I am not trying to challenge you in any way, if that might come across that way, i just do not agree. I think i read the arguments and i said “i don’t understand them” in a sense that i think they are wrong aka drawn from the wrong assumptions.

Trying to just accept it for now. Probably i need to adapt to this new setting of MMS then, as it is the “new generation” (see, i put that in quotes :)) driving the market. Still, i will try to support you as best as i can, but here i fundamentally disagree.


(Breo) #10

Probably because it’s a unfixed bug? Afaik it was not a feature :wink: also please read my second sentence :>


(Anti) #11

[QUOTE=acQu;440711]W:ET is about the same. It is based on a real world setting, with real humans, real weapons, no monsters, no extra planets, just earth. Guess what is in there :slight_smile:

Well, i explained myself as well. I think there is something wrong in the equation and the way things are judged, how much weight you give to them, etc. I am not trying to challenge you in any way, if that might come across that way, i just do not agree. I think i read the arguments and i said “i don’t understand them” in a sense that i think they are wrong aka drawn from the wrong assumptions.

Trying to just accept it for now. Probably i need to adapt to this new setting of MMS then, as it is the “new generation” (see, i put that in quotes :)) driving the market. Still, i will try to support you as best as i can, but here i fundamentally disagree.[/QUOTE]

Ahh I see, we’ll agree to disagree for now then :slight_smile:


(acQu) #12

It was a bug made into a feature, but i only just heard it from Anti yesterday and from a bit of google afterwards :wink: Pretty bad way of talking about it imo. I always perceived it like putting your weight and energy into the jump to jump further and faster. But leave that topic aside for now :wink:

What i am trying to say is that i think there is a bigger principle behind the arguments of “alienating” players MrEd mentioned, and i think these belong to a whole new school of thought on game design. I really would want to show you a video, but it is only in my motherlanguage :frowning: I mean the so called “1 click boom arguments”, which basically make everything simple and at the same time also stupid. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails, but it is certainly overrated …

Ok :wink:


(ImageOmega) #13

I agree with Kendle that we’ve exhausted the discussion regarding strafe jumping and it is clear that the Quake style strafe jumping would never be implemented into Dirty Bomb and I can understand that from both an animation, programming, and competitor (business model included) standpoint.

Besides even with what Samurai posted from the BF3 video that type of strafe jumping is negligible in the difference. However, I do understand that if advanced techniques can gain a player an advantage on the competition then that is a desired characteristic for the game to possess. So, in essence, we’re talking about forcing something into the game that would only make a minor difference. That’s a lot of extra work and testing for a 1.5 second difference in travel time.

I think the movement having a better overall feel starts with the base run animation/speed. Back pedaling should be the same speed as strafing and forward running (not sprinting). Is this really an animation issue or does the team feel like you should run backwards slower. Also, I am all for an increased in the base running speed.

Regarding jumping, the crouch jumping idea makes total sense and I would love to see this implemented. I also would be in favor for restrictions to continuos or consecutive jumping to be removed. If there was to be an increase in speed, a possible idea would be to gain momentum in the air while jumping and to limit this a bit, would be to introduce a delay between jumps while sprinting.


(Samurai.) #14

Just like to add that i understand the arguments SD are putting across but like acQu, i don’t see them as valid reasons from my perspective.

To be completely honest it’s incredibly frustrating having the opportunity to contribute towards making this an awesome game with ideas to put across, but having them denied (reducing the potential & complexity of this game) due to expecting the main playerbase to be extremely retarded. The simple form of strafe jumping many have requested (not the quake style - think ET/ETQW even BF3 at the very least) is incredibly easy to do for the player… it’s just the usual sprint + moving forward but just introducing jumps and a little side to side movement… it’s hardly requiring pixel accuracy, crazy combinations of key presses or reactions of a ninja. It’s a simple component that players can even practice on their own if they are new to it.

The other argument about it being hard to track strafe jumping… the distance of jumping up and down from a side on perspective is hardly a dramatic change, it’s only a few pixels… we can’t compensate for those that must be aiming with a laptop trackpad who clearly can’t hit a barn door. Effectively these arguments are targeted at what i believe will be an extremely niche population who are completely new to FPS gaming… what about playerbases from RTCW/ET/ET:QW/QL/Shootmania/TF2/Brink/CS series/BF series/COD series/etc… these players may just see DB as a dumbed down game for simple gamers with no level of complexity (low skill ceiling) to progress through and just move on.

I just think to much emphasis is being put on making the game really “accessible” to really bad players in terms of game mechanics, when the accessibility is already there through the f2p model. You then can introduce a match making system that means these players can play the simple basics of the game against other narrow minded (bad) players that also play this way without limiting the games potential… that way they don’t feel like they are getting rolled or trashed having no fun (as everyone is really bad they aren’t punished for their skill level), yet the rest of us aren’t suffering from a simplified version of previous games that feels like we are going backwards with gameplay but updated gfx.

I apologise for the semi ‘strychzilla’ style post but just being honest. We are slowly making progress such as the spawn waves introduction among a few other aspects, but there are times like these that really do frustrate me.

You seem to have missed the point of strafe jumping. It’s not supposed to have a major impact on redefining the game, its meant to be subtle feature that will provide benefits that appear unnoticed but actually make a difference (that 1.5s difference is enough to get to a more beneficial point on the map than an opponent trying to get to the same point - think of a hill being climbed on each side, it’s easier to shoot down than upwards). What strafe jumping also does is this… (the main reason)

[QUOTE=shirosae;440524]
Anyway, I think that for me, the key thing about strafe-jumping was the addition of a movement system that generated such an emergent interaction with the environment. It created movement that required constant interaction, so it melded with combat to create an experience that was continuous, rather than being just gunfights separated with silence.[/QUOTE]

I hate repeating myself but the gameplay is only fun and interesting when you reach the zones of the map where the objectives/majority of people are… the part from the spawn to this point is extremely dull/mind nulling just holding W+Sprint till you reach this area.

Enough about strafe jumping - i would like to see some form develop even if it has to be an extremely simple dumbed down version it’s better than what we currently have.


(warbie) #15

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this. I’ve yet to come across someone who feels this way re. strafe jumping. In my experience people fall into two camps - those that don’t know what it is and don’t care, and those that appreciate what it adds to the game. In their prime it wasn’t uncommon to find multiple servers full of people just practising strafe jumping on specifically created strafe jumping maps in RTCW and ET. When people did find out about it they were genuinely curious and wanted learn. We used to show people how to do it on our server - I mentioned in another thread that I once taught a mother in her 40s how to strafe jump on Assault. And then her husband. And then the rest of their team. Then we did it backwards. And then had backwards strafe jumping races.

It doesn’t matter if it’s an engine quirk or an exploit or a design choice - it’s one of the things that helped make these games great and on its own added 100s of hours of playtime.

I think the fact that RTCW and ET were both considerably better games due to the inclusion of strafe jumping with no downsides (that I can see) is worth taking into account.


(Nail) #16

But it wasn’t “included” as in it wasn’t programmed. It was an engine bug found in Q3 (iirc) that was exploited by the players, it was an accident, it could take months and months just to try and replicate it with the whole coding team, therefore they aren’t going to do it


(Mustang) #17

Huh what?

It was easily replicable by the developers. Carmack said he didn’t bother to “fix” it because he wasn’t happy with the result (of the fix).


(ImageOmega) #18

QuakeWorld actually.

And, in regards to Samurai: it is hard for me to stomach being told I missed the point of strafe jumping because I have been a hardcore Quake player all my gaming days. If you don’t know how to move in that game, you don’t know how to play. That 1.5 second difference I mentioned is something very negligible especially regarding how DB maps are laid out and spawns are placed in proximity to objectives (also, maps are no where near as expansive as BF3). Of course, getting to point A from point B in a faster manner is always preferred as I said in my original post. I merely made that point in consideration of the weight of work to turn strafe jumping into a feature compared to the minor gain. In fact, I also offered an alternative solution which would be gained momentum or speed while sprinting and jumping. Thus, a simpler mechanic, but worthwhile to getting to an objective faster if you time jumps accordingly or whatever else. This is similar to the jump delay in BF3 when sprinting.

Would I rather have strafe jumping than not regardless of strafe jumping “game style”? Absolutely, I would. I guess I am playing Devil’s Advocate at this point and justifying SD’s decision. I just am more interested in them upping base run speed and higher jump height. Everything else, I believe, will fall into play.


(INF3RN0) #19

I appreciate this post. I’m wondering if SD has come up with any ideas regarding an advanced state of movement? I’d like to help give feedback if I can, and as I understand it the goal would be mechanics that aren’t “required” to play successfully or that obstruct other players tracking abilities, but more attuned to accomplishing specific tasks like perhaps a trick jump or shortcut?


(DarkangelUK) #20

Strafing was well known by SD and could have been removed via various methods, it was purposely left in and some maps even had some jumps purposely put in place to take advantage of it (the oasis wall jump is the most obvious example)… it was not a bug or an oversight. I’d say if a mechanic was embraced and various map designs created to accommodate it, then that comes under ‘feature’ in my book.

I admit that my reasons ‘for’ advanced movement are purely selfish… trying to master the movement of Q3, RtCW and W:ET extended the life of those games ten-fold for me. It added an extra layer of depth for me beyond the same old point and click adventure mechanics of other shooters. Suddenly doc runners were just as important as high accuracy shooters, someone that could grab the objective and traverse the map like a demon, cutting corners, vaulting walls and going routes that no normal player could was a highly sought after commodity and movement practice to ‘own’ a map was just as important as aiming practice to own those that walked on it. I don’t see why widening the net of accessibility to include those that want more than just shooting is a bad thing. Tricking and learning advanced movement was VERY popular in ET, and I’d say a lot of other players also got some extra joy out of the game because of it.