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Thread: Easy to use. Hard to master.

  1. #1

    Easy to use. Hard to master.

    This is how i feel all game designers should strive to make their weapons.

    The majority of brinks weapons are easy to use, easy to master. But have limited use even when mastered, which leaves the weapons feeling kind of unfulfilling to use which really cuts down the replayability of the game.
    Violence is not the answer. It is the question. The answer is Yes.




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  2. #2

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    I've said it a couple of times in different threads, but yes, exactly this.
    Yup. I went there.

  3. #3

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Brink has built-in trick shots and game mechanics:

    Grenade Shooting. The ability assists anyone in doing something that'd you otherwise have to practice to death or get lucky to do. One in a million shot. This is obvious from the start.

    Downed Fire: Easy to use. No need to master at all.

    Combat Intuition: Tells you when someone is pointing their gun at you.

    If more of the guns worked like the Bulpdaun feels, then it would be harder to master and reward a bit more learning. Instead you have Carb-9 plus Drum Mag+ Muzzle Break and it becomes a shredder. It sends out so many high-powered rounds all at once that you just put yourself at a disadvantage if you don't use it. Add in GS to the equation: why use another gun at all?

    The Kross feels like a gun that requires some practice. Maybe all the guns should be tweaked so they feel like you have to take your time a bit more when using them. My take.

    The game would be harder or take more practice if they took the Light Body Type and lowered his HP to half of what it is now. And lowered the damage on the Light's useable guns too. But then there'd be complaints about that too. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

    There's already a barrier to retention either way regardless of the "skill" of the game. If you can't just blow **** up and shoot any gun and get one-shot kills all over the place to your hearts content, there's gonna be a natural barrier to acceptance for your average joe gammer. Plain and simple. You just can't please everyone.

  4. #4

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    The game would be harder or take more practice if they took the Light Body Type and lowered his HP to half of what it is now. And lowered the damage on the Light's useable guns too. But then there'd be complaints about that too. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
    Most logical way to balance body types would be to increase speed of each body types. For example,
    New light speed = Old light speed + speed buff and access to all SMART movements.
    New Medium = Old light speed access to some SMART.
    New Heavy = Old medium speed and can only climb and slide.

    And on top of that guns should be more accurate especially Assault Rifles. For SMGs damage should be lowered but a lot smaller spread. This will reward good movement and aim thereby making firefights more intense and rewarding.

  5. #5

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolstory View Post
    Most logical way to balance body types would be to increase speed of each body types. For example,
    New light speed = Old light speed + speed buff and access to all SMART movements.
    New Medium = Old light speed access to some SMART.
    New Heavy = Old medium speed and can only climb and slide.

    And on top of that guns should be more accurate especially Assault Rifles. For SMGs damage should be lowered but a lot smaller spread. This will reward good movement and aim thereby making firefights more intense and rewarding.
    That's moving the sliders up on every body and more of the same though basically just adding more strafing ability across the board but the same feel would result, right? An interesting idea (don't hate me) would maybe be in spacing out how fast bullets come out of the guns, so all CQC guns have a slower Rate of Fire. Downside, the bullets stream is even more visible. Then strafing avoiding would even be possible for the Heavy. Who could regenerate health faster. Then the gotlung weapons could remain the same for rate of fire as currently so that ARs become more of an area of denial firehose weapon and SMG would have slow Rate of Fire but more accuracy. Not necessarily any more damage. So that a clip is expended on an SMG in more time resulting in more effort to aim for key areas. (It takes longer to empty a clip)

  6. #6

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    That's moving the sliders up on every body and more of the same though basically just adding more strafing ability across the board but the same feel would result, right? An interesting idea (don't hate me) would maybe be in spacing out how fast bullets come out of the guns, so all CQC guns have a slower Rate of Fire. Downside, the bullets stream is even more visible. Then strafing avoiding would even be possible for the Heavy. Who could regenerate health faster. Then the gotlung weapons could remain the same for rate of fire as currently so that ARs become more of an area of denial firehose weapon and SMG would have slow Rate of Fire but more accuracy. Not necessarily any more damage. So that a clip is expended on an SMG in more time resulting in more effort to aim for key areas. (It takes longer to empty a clip)
    Don't think that would work cause if I read it right you'll be ruining the SMGs as they are supposed to have a fast ROF while having low damage. Plus Im talking about buffing the medium and heavy body types. Cause using heavy puts you at a disadvantage, you cant dodge (at all) and you take a longer time getting to the objective. So using the heavy while attacking is not useless. And lights can easily run in circles around the heavy and spray him down.

    My way both medium and heavies can strafe well but lights can still flank better as they can use SMART to reach places medium or heavies cant.

  7. #7
    FEAR THE BEARD! AmishWarMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    I kinda of agree with wolf in that, if you up the sliders for speed on everybody, you haven't really changed anything. The lone exception being that, since bullet-speed/rate-of-fire stay put, so there is gain in that regard.

    If they did adjust speeds as you suggest, what would become of a light, with the speed boost, and then given the speed boost buff? Would he turn into the Speedy Gonzales? or would you make them unable to receive a speed boost? (don't think that would go over well with the Light community)

  8. #8
    pragmatic incrementalist thesuzukimethod's Avatar
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    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    i'm 99% sure that they already said that they cant do anything with body speeds b/c it breaks the animations. I'm search challenged (as AWM has demonstrated), but i think it was in the Rahdo thread.

    (i'm not saying it's a bad idea. i think that if ALL smart were available to mediums/lights, and all medium smart was available to Heavies, the game would move a bit faster, and more areas/routes would be open to more people)

  9. #9

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmishWarMachine View Post
    I kinda of agree with wolf in that, if you up the sliders for speed on everybody, you haven't really changed anything. The lone exception being that, since bullet-speed/rate-of-fire stay put, so there is gain in that regard.

    If they did adjust speeds as you suggest, what would become of a light, with the speed boost, and then given the speed boost buff? Would he turn into the Speedy Gonzales? or would you make them unable to receive a speed boost? (don't think that would go over well with the Light community)
    Speed boosts to all is a great idea, it raises the skill ceiling, as everyone is harder to aim at, its also harder to aim the faster your moving (providing your strafing at the same time). It would mean heavies werent sitting ducks getting headshotted with ease, and would mean mediums could fight lights on an even level. Lights being ultra fast would be great anyway, it would mean that if they increased the accuracy on all weapons also, then mediums wouldnt be OP at range, as lights could try and dodge.

    TF2 scout is far faster than brink light, and it works great. Just saying.
    Violence is not the answer. It is the question. The answer is Yes.




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  10. #10

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolstory View Post
    Don't think that would work cause if I read it right you'll be ruining the SMGs as they are supposed to have a fast ROF while having low damage. Plus Im talking about buffing the medium and heavy body types. Cause using heavy puts you at a disadvantage, you cant dodge (at all) and you take a longer time getting to the objective. So using the heavy while attacking is not useless. And lights can easily run in circles around the heavy and spray him down.

    My way both medium and heavies can strafe well but lights can still flank better as they can use SMART to reach places medium or heavies cant.
    Heavy and Medium can strafe away all they want, but they have larger hitboxes and so are easier to hit. I'd argue that the Light Body type because of speed and climbing ability tops all other body types regardless of weapons, especially since they can avoid bullets and the other two body types are larger doors to hit.

    Because the 3 body types are uneven by their nature, then there's only work-arounds. That's why I made my suggestion. Making the guns more accurate, but lower the DMG of guns still favors the Light Body Type. That's why I suggested cutting down the Light Body's health.

    Here's another idea: What if Medium and Heavy regenerated health at a superior rate than Light Body? Base HPs could remain the same as currently and weapons could be made a bit more accurate, and Med and Heavy get fast-regenerating health.

    So, it limits the effectiveness of the Light and an SMG but promotes accurate and continuous bullet registration. So if you're missing more than your hitting, the Med and especially the Heavy is getting back health as you're missing. For every 3 bullets that hit, the Medium loses 2 hit points and the heavy loses 1 pt rather than a 1 bullet to 1 HP ratio. So a ratio that promotes refined aiming over inaccuracy. I am just trying to illustrate the regeneration FEEL effect, not necessarily specifically the actual bullet ratio. Hope I am clear about that. The amount of regeneration makes a Medium and Heavy more resistant if they can find cover or strafe cause the Light to back pedal or misfire etc..

  11. #11
    FEAR THE BEARD! AmishWarMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apoc View Post
    TF2 scout is far faster than brink light, and it works great. Just saying.
    I'll defer to your experience in TF2 as I have none.

    How does the speed relate between TF2's fatty classes (demo/soldier?) and the Brink Heavy?


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    Heavy and Medium can strafe away all they want, but they have larger hitboxes and so are easier to hit. I'd argue that the Light Body type because of speed and climbing ability tops all other body types regardless of weapons, especially since they can avoid bullets and the other two body types are larger doors to hit.

    Because the 3 body types are uneven by their nature, then there's only work-arounds. That's why I made my suggestion. Making the guns more accurate, but lower the DMG of guns still favors the Light Body Type. That's why I suggested cutting down the Light Body's health.

    Here's another idea: What if Medium and Heavy regenerated health at a superior rate than Light Body? Base HPs could remain the same and weapons could be made a bit more accurate, and Med and Heavy get fast-regenerating health.

    So, it limits the effectiveness of the Light and an SMG but promotes accurate and continuous bullet registration. So if you're missing more than your hitting, the Med and especially the Heavy is getting back health as you're missing. For every 3 bullets that hit, the Medium loses 2 hit points and the heavy loses 1 pt rather than a 1 bullet to 1 HP ratio. So a ratio that promotes refined aiming over inaccuracy. I am just trying to illustrate the regeneration FEEL effect, not necessarily specifically the actual bullet ratio. Hope I am clear about that. The amount of regeneration makes a Medium and Heavy more resistant if they can find cover or strafe cause the Light to back pedal or misfire etc..
    What if the body types mitigated bullet damage differently? Use the medium body-type as a baseline for all bullet damage for all guns, and have lights impacted more, and heavies impacted less by each round.

    Example:
    Gun X does 14HP baseline damage with each bullet

    Light body type: Gun X does 16HP in damage
    Medium body type: Gun X does 14HP in damage
    Heavy body type: Gun X does 12HP in damage
    Last edited by AmishWarMachine; 24th Aug 2011 at 18:15.

  12. #12
    Brink Hardcore Club TruGamer97's Avatar
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    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    Here's another idea: What if Medium and Heavy regenerated health at a superior rate than Light Body? Base HPs could remain the same and weapons could be made a bit more accurate, and Med and Heavy get fast-regenerating health.
    Good idea instead of cutting the lights health lowering lights health would kinda ruin playing light for me at least

  13. #13

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    Heavy and Medium can strafe away all they want, but they have larger hitboxes and so are easier to hit.
    True but they also have more health and weapons that do more damage, so they only need to dodge a few bullets. But faster movements at least it gives them the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    Here's another idea: What if Medium and Heavy regenerated health at a superior rate than Light Body? Base HPs could remain the same and weapons could be made a bit more accurate, and Med and Heavy get fast-regenerating health.
    I like this idea. Not too fast just a bit faster.

    Plus with more accurate guns the game will be a more rewarding experience

  14. #14

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    The game would be harder or take more practice if they took the Light Body Type and lowered his HP to half of what it is now. And lowered the damage on the Light's useable guns too. But then there'd be complaints about that too. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
    This would make me quit in a heart beat. For me the light's hp is at a nice sweet spot. You can definitely feel it's less than the other body types while at the same time you don't die without anytime to respond. While I would love to see speeds change I don't think this will happen due to other dev comments.

    It looks like this means the only real tweaking they can do to body types is directly through HP changes and indirectly through weapon tweaks. With only those two options available what do people think are the best ways to tweak the game?

    *I know for weapons - lower spread, increase accuracy, predictable recoil, etc. so no need to rehash everything that's pretty common knowledge and been well talked about. With the weapons issue I'm more getting at how they might be tweaked specifically in relation to body type.
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  15. #15

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by nephandys View Post
    With only those two options available what do people think are the best ways to tweak the game?
    I think the biggest advantages the Light body type have, which are magnified by a skilled player are:

    1) Speed - It's hard to hit a strafing, sprinting target, especially when they are the quickest of all targets. They can attack and retreat the fastest. If they get killed, they can get back to the Obj twice as fast as a lumbering Heavy.

    2) Hit Box - Not only are Lights fast, but they also are skinny which makes these high spread weapons even more frustrating as bullets whiz past their skinny bodies.

    3) SMART - Lights can move the fastest around obstacles and can reach areas the other body types cannot, which is great when utilizing quickest paths to and from Obj's.

    4) SMGs - Light's main weapon is the SMG, and the SMGs are great up close. Since a light has the other three bonuses listed above, it's easy for them to close the distance between them and their targets while taking as little damage as possible. Considering that Brink has more confined areas near OBJ's than open areas, this also plays to a light's advantage. Who cares if your enemy's got a Gotlung when any SMG's damage at that range is about the same, considering the confined battle area. Just hop and slide from cover to cover until you've got the positional advantage.

    Those 4 points above combined, when utilized properly by a good player, trump ANYTHING the other body types have for an advantage.

    With all that being mentioned, and partially knowing what can and cannot be changed, the only ways I can think of to improve the game so it's not so Light Body-type friendly, is to decrease the spread of Medium and Heavy weapons, and perhaps decrease the range and damage of SMGs a tiny bit. Even so, a good light will still be able to hop around and unload a half clip into anyone's face, but maybe the Mediums and Heavies will have a better chance to get some long/med range hits if their weapons were more stable.

    If I could change anything, I'd also increase a Light's screen shake when hit with ARs or Heavy LMG weapons. I'd allow Heavies to not be knocked on their ass by Light slides or GS shots (only normal frags and mines/C4). I'd maybe decrease damage to any body shots the Med/Heavy took from SMGs, forcing Light players to either aim for the head or shoot more bullets to kill a non-light if they're just gonna bullet spam their target's torso (this may be taken care of if they lower the range for SMGs).

    All I know is something NEEDS to be done, because 90% of high-level Brink players use the light body type with the Carb-9. Not fun.
    Last edited by SinDonor; 24th Aug 2011 at 19:17.

  16. #16

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmishWarMachine View Post
    I'll defer to your experience in TF2 as I have none.

    How does the speed relate between TF2's fatty classes (demo/soldier?) and the Brink Heavy?



    What if the body types mitigated bullet damage differently? Use the medium body-type as a baseline for all bullet damage for all guns, and have lights impacted more, and heavies impacted less by each round.

    Example:
    Gun X does 14HP baseline damage with each bullet

    Light body type: Gun X does 16HP in damage
    Medium body type: Gun X does 14HP in damage
    Heavy body type: Gun X does 12HP in damage
    Hit box is still an issue and Rate of Fire would mitigate a decreasing power of bullets as a work-around. Would be my guess. Light trumps all. That's why I suggested Medium and Heavy regenerates health at a faster rate like a dude on steroids. A couple missfired shots in a row from a light, and Medium/Heavy their bars makes that blllllllloooooooomp noise as if regenerating. Maybe the bar over their head starts flashing to signal to the Light Body Type that he needs to start connecting with bullets, or get the hell out of dodge, lol.

  17. #17
    FEAR THE BEARD! AmishWarMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    Hit box is still an issue and Rate of Fire would mitigate a decreasing power of bullets as a work-around. Would be my guess. Light trumps all. That's why I suggested Medium and Heavy regenerates health at a faster rate like a dude on steroids. A couple missfired shots in a row from a light, and Medium/Heavy their bars makes that blllllllloooooooomp noise as if regenerating. Maybe the bar over their head starts flashing to signal to the Light Body Type that he needs to start connecting with bullets, or get the hell out of dodge, lol.
    Hitboxes and Rate of Fire are pretty much set in concrete, and as such are always going to be an issue, per se. IMO, anything outside of movement speed adjustments would have relatively low, if any, effect on damage avoidance.

    Damage mitigation, on the other hand, is something that could easily be tied to body size, and makes logical sense (e.g. Sure, a light body will be able to avoid bullets more often, but when they hit, it's more damaging).

    Health regeneration, while it could work to help level the playing field, strikes me as a little more 'artificial' method of doing so.

    I definitely thing the heavies need something, just don't know what the best answer is.

  18. #18

    Re: Easy to use. Hard to master.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmishWarMachine View Post
    Hitboxes and Rate of Fire are pretty much set in concrete, and as such are always going to be an issue, per se. IMO, anything outside of movement speed adjustments would have relatively low, if any, effect on damage avoidance.

    Damage mitigation, on the other hand, is something that could easily be tied to body size, and makes logical sense (e.g. Sure, a light body will be able to avoid bullets more often, but when they hit, it's more damaging).

    Health regeneration, while it could work to help level the playing field, strikes me as a little more 'artificial' method of doing so.

    I definitely thing the heavies need something, just don't know what the best answer is.
    Because it is artificial method. A work-around.

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