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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Caesar and Ritchie

  1. #21
    FEAR THE BEARD! AmishWarMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    I know it's pub play, and will thereby be dismissed by some as unsubstantiated evidence or whatever, but....

    "Exhibit A" that the Ritchie/Caesar can be used effectively as a primary throughout the course of a match (regardless of circumstances):

  2. #22

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    A team mate of mine was running around last night with Ritchie as Primary too. Its indeed useable that way.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    I use the caesar almost exclusively as my second. The only thing that really pisses me off with this gun is that sometimes I can shoot someone at point blank range and not hit them. Its almost like the shot is taken after their body model.
    >CnN< Ceppy

  4. #24

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    Quote Originally Posted by Cep View Post
    I use the caesar almost exclusively as my second. The only thing that really pisses me off with this gun is that sometimes I can shoot someone at point blank range and not hit them. Its almost like the shot is taken after their body model.
    Same I love the Ritchie/Ceasar as well, and run with either one of em. However I have had that happen many a time as well where I have missed from point blank range ie punch/stab range with less than 40ms ping against a non-moving target. Not sure why or what causes it though. If it is a gun mechanic I would like to see it tweaked a little.

    As this is the post for least used weapons though I should post which one i absolutely hate. I dislike the ez-nade launcher and anyone using it even if they are on my team... I don't know how many teams I've had my screen shaking because of it being fired/going off. It is the one gun that makes me wish FF was on on the server I play on. As I would kill my own team if they were using the ez nade

  5. #25
    Senior Member Hot-Wire's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    Hmm adjusted ironsite makes hipfire more accurate? Any truth to this?
    RAD Soldier Username: Tower-Defender

  6. #26

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    Quote Originally Posted by Hot-Wire View Post
    Hmm adjusted ironsite makes hipfire more accurate? Any truth to this?
    Not sure where you got that from, but no.
    Spread for standing and crouching is 1.5 and 1.2 respectively, both before and after.

    Regards,
    Nexo

  7. #27
    Senior Member Hot-Wire's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexolate View Post
    Not sure where you got that from, but no.
    Spread for standing and crouching is 1.5 and 1.2 respectively, both before and after.

    Regards,
    Nexo
    Watch supercargo's vid that was posted. He mentions that.
    RAD Soldier Username: Tower-Defender

  8. #28

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    Caesar and Ritchie are essentially the same gun, just re-skins. Both are so powerful that you can get away with inaccuracy. Almost a handheld shotgun. Still remember how cool it was to see in the E3 trailer.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    After watching the video of what appears to be the console version of Brink its quite clear to me that the PC version of the Ritchie/Caesar is woefully different.

    A number of the shots this guy pulls off from hip shots at range hit perfectly yet I can guarantee that the same would never work on PC. I was totally surprised that he never once had to go ADS for some of the ranged fire and I am now wondering if there is some fundamental difference between the platforms because I know from extensive use of the Ritchie/Caesar that a number of the close combat and ranged shots he manages to pull off would never replicate on the PC.
    >CnN< Ceppy

  10.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #30
    Game Designer Smooth's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    There are differences between the PC and the consoles due to the control-methods and added aim-assistance.

    Playtesting has shown that these need to be taken into account when balancing weapons. A gun that is satisfying to use on consoles could feel clumsy on PC, and what is a good gun using a controller could be very overpowered when using a mouse.
    Senior Game Designer & Analyst | Splash Damage Ltd
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  11. #31
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    I think that's good to hear from an official source in these threads. I think everyone just makes the assumption that the weapons handle the same which is why we seem to get very mixed feedback on weapons/skill/ability in the game between the console players and PC players.

    If that's the case shouldn't there be specific weapons tweak forums for PC/Xbox/PS3 to ensure that this mix in feedback does not cause adverse affects? I know we can highlight threads for specific platforms but its too easy to wonder into a thread.
    >CnN< Ceppy

  12. #32

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    I think that most PC and console players want the same thing...more starting accuracy.

    Mixed feedback probably has more to do with a player's experience and the experience of his competition, than it does about platforms. (This topic, for instance, has no console vs PC divide...its just an experience versus inexperienced divide.)

    I also think it is more important to make the gunplay feel good, than it is to make sure every weapon is balanced. In lots of timeless multiplayer games, there are just a couple of weapons that experienced players use...so that isn't a huge problem. It is better to have a couple of great feeling guns than it is to have 30 balanced weapons that don't feel good.

    I believe that this statement, "A gun that is satisfying to use on consoles could feel clumsy on PC", is referring to guns with a high spread. If so, then I think this idea that inaccurate guns feel satisfying on consoles is a big misunderstanding.

    I'd love to talk about specific weapons and the plans SD may have for them, in terms of separating PC and consoles. It would be a lot easier to talk about specifics than general theories. To be honest, I really don't think there is any case where you could improve accuracy for a gun on PC, and we wouldn't want those exact same improvements on consoles as well. (However, if you are going to make any of the PC guns less accurate, then we don't want them. )
    Last edited by tangoliber; 31st Aug 2011 at 05:14.

  13. #33

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    Quote Originally Posted by tangoliber View Post
    Text.
    I don't think the consensus was that console-players like high spread. That was simply a design decision to make the gunplay less brutal for players. It didn't pan out in the end, but it was a nice sentiment.

    I can understand how a weapon can differ in experiences based on platform, but I can't quite explain it yet. Mostly cos I've never bought the same game for both my PS3 and PC, so it's hard to compare different games' weapons.

    Regards,
    Nexo

    It'll be interesting to see how CS:GO handles their weapons mechanics in regards to consoles.

  14. #34

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    CS: GO is taking out much of the recoil, supposedly. Tap firing with the M4A1 for instance provides no benefit over burst firing it. And I think it is a bad idea. If one can adjust to the Ritchie's "jump" using a controller, then I think that one should be able to adjust to CS 1.6 recoil as well. And tap firing is tap firing.... it can be done with a controller or mouse.

    I understand the sentiment of trying to make gunplay less brutal. I also understand the sentiment of believing that guns should be tweaked to fit the platform. However, I think that once you look at specific weapons, you will have difficulty finding instances where the theory really applies. I really doubt that you could come up with any improved accuracy tweaks for PC that wouldn't be welcome on consoles as well.

    Since this is the Ritchie topic, I'll use that as example. If you increase the accuracy on the Ritchie, then it will make the gun more powerful on both PC and consoles. The boost will help the Ritchie on PC more than it will on consoles, since mouse users can aim faster. But the point is that it won't make the gun less satisfying on consoles. Accuracy helps PC players more, but there would be no reason not to apply the same changes to consoles as well...
    Basically, there is no reason for guns on console to be less accurate, especially since we can't take advantage of accuracy as much as a good PC player can, due to our slower aiming speed. And of course, I really doubt that PC players want to see console players get more accuracy on their guns than they get... so, its probably best to keep all platforms synchronized.
    (In terms of recoil, you can adjust to the jump of the Ritchie using a controller, so I don't think there is any need to reduce the recoil on consoles, either.)
    Last edited by tangoliber; 31st Aug 2011 at 13:00.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    I think you have missed the point of my post.

    As I saw on that video (and which was effectively confirmed by a dev) the console Ritchie is already more accurate in game then the PC Ritchie, therefore you would not want the same weapon tweak being applied to both platforms to increase accuracy simply because the PC would reach the appropriate level and the console version would be uber sniper accurate.

    It makes more sense to have separate tweaks since the mixed feedback will give false readings for the devs.

    Lets take a hypothetical scenario. Lets say the PC version of the Tokmak is under powered but on console its about average. If the feedback from the mixed groups seems to be a to and fro between players saying its fine as it is and others saying its not. They then base their decision to change the weapon by not buffing it because it appears feedback is neutral. This would be incorrect for both platforms since the outcome will either be no buff for the PC and if they did decide to buff, then the console version would be overpowered.
    >CnN< Ceppy

  16. #36

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    If the Ritchie on consoles is more accurate than it is on PC, then they should be made the same.
    However, looking at youtube videos, the size of the crosshair is the same. The only difference is that in most youtube videos, the Ritchie does not have a muzzle break. Kick seems the same as well, but perhaps there is some difference in recoil. I don't think Smooth was confirming that the Ritchie is different now in stats, but simply saying that guns feel different under different control schemes and that he thinks they should be tweaked accordingly.

    The Ritchie should be the same on PC and consoles. Increased accuracy benefits the PC more...so as long as the tweaks are balanced on PC, you know that the weapon won't be overpowered on consoles.

    I don't think your hypothetical scenario applies, because the weapon discussion on these boards never seems to be console vs PC, as some believe. Its experience versus inexperience. Experienced PC and console players on one side, and inexperienced PC and console players on the other side. Plus, feedback from one person doesn't use the same standards as feedback from another person... one person may be thinking about weapon balance, one person may be only thinking about how a gun feels, and there are some people who play easy bots and say that every gun is fine.

    So, let's not talk about hypotheticals...Lets talk about actual specifics. Any change you make on the Tokmak can be applied to consoles as well. If it isn't too accurate on PC, then it wouldn't be too accurate on consoles.

    And if you are on PC, then why would care whether they bring the changes over to consoles or not? I hope that SD listens to console players (who I believe want the same changes), and not to what PC players think that consoles need.

    I challenge you to suggest a single weapon where the console version should have less accuracy than the PC version. If you want to argue instead that consoles weapons should be more accurate, then go ahead...but I was just saying to keep them the same in order to minimize problems.
    Last edited by tangoliber; 1st Sep 2011 at 02:50.

  17. #37

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    You do realise consoles have aim-assist Tango ?

    The Ritchie on consoles is probably not more accurate "stats" wise, its likely LESS accurate than the PC version............ its the effects of the auto-aim and all the other assistance consoles get because of the controllers that cause the Ritchie (and other guns most likely) to "seem" very accurate on consoles compared to PC... even tho the PC accuracy stats for the ritchie might be 100% more than the console ver.

    I'm sure we've all played against the bots on challenges that seem to headshot you constantly with carb-9's from across the room.......that's aim-assistance to the extreme there. (Its weird, It either Drops spread or makes random bullets a 100% headshot.....eg magic bullets )

    Obviously consoles don't have that amount of assistance but,

    PC versions don't have any assistance for aiming at all (besides recoil recovery), so that means any stat changes made for PC versions will not translate 100% the same on consoles, hence the reason for keeping them seperate...."stat" wise.

    That doesn't mean the feelings of the seperate versions are wrong.. (ie console players wanting more accuracy as well) , this may be true, but you cant just take the tweaks from PC and give them (100% the same) to console as once they hit console they are more effective due to the aim-assistance, this is why I can guarantee you the console stats for accuracy etc are lower than PC already. (I'm prepared to eat my words if someone has a stat comparison of weapons from PC and Consoles.... or a dev tells me otherwise )

    So the "stats" for the guns will always be different, you can't avoid it unless you remove aim-assist completely on consoles and give them a mouse+kb, or force PC's to use controllers.

  18. #38

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    indeed the ritchie is very hard to use. i have used it as a sniper because well the ranged drop off and its compairable to a more powerful recoil version of the drugnov, but the great thing is when the recoil is very powerful but it pops back in place much faster (back to a resting position) allowing it to be shot pretty fast, and its a 2 hit kill... most of the time

    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/i...ine=1310569036
    thanks for the sig wolf

    we taken down some clowns

  19. #39

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    haha maybe but Ceezar can also be pronounce as CHEZAREE in Italian, which is a very simular language to latin. or if you perfer caesar can be pronounced in a spainish method... CehZAr

    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/i...ine=1310569036
    thanks for the sig wolf

    we taken down some clowns

  20. #40

    Re: Caesar and Ritchie

    Yes, all console games have aim-assist...magnetism/acceleration, tracking, etc... but it doesn't affect my argument...because even with aim-assist, the console player does not aim as quickly as a player with a mouse. The only time when Brink's aim assist really helps is in tracking a moving body while in ADS . This form of aim-assist is usually turned off, because it will mess up most players who don't need it. Any other aim assist only helps people who are completely new to using a controller.

    You will always aim faster with a mouse. The Ritchie will always be more effective on PC, because you target someone with a flick of the wrist. If you take the same accuracy tweaks from PC to consoles, the console guns will still be less effective. The only way that the Ritchie would ever be more powerful on consoles would be if you actually made the stats much more accurate for consoles only.

    Plus, think about the implications of what you are saying. If consoles weapons are given less accuracy because they have aim-assist...then aiming will be less important, but whether the bullets hit or not is more random. That isn't a very good combination...and it sounds more suitable for an MMO than an FPS.

    My problem with this discussion is that we are talking so much about theory... especially when a PC player talks about aim-assist on consoles without an accurate understanding of how it works or feels.. Saying that the guns should be tweaked for platforms sounds really nice in theory...but in reality it is misguided and will create backlash. I can't think of a single weapons where there needs to be a difference in stats according to platform.

    As for the accuracy stats.... the accuracy and spread programmed into the guns are, at the moment, the same. (I don't think you were saying otherwise.) The randomness of bullets in the spread is the same...(auto-aim does not affect this.)
    Therefore, there is no reason why the guns on consoles would have more accuracy already. I think that the actual player statistics would be similar, because whether you are on PC or consoles, you wait to shoot until your shot is lined up... and then whether it hits or not is going to be the same.
    The difference would be that PC players are targetting their opponents faster...something which wouldn't show up in accuracy statistics. And they probably get more headshots with the accurate guns, because it is easier to aim for the head on PC.
    Last edited by tangoliber; 1st Sep 2011 at 17:18.

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