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Thread: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

  1. #1

    weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    First, everyone has different definitions so let me set the stage.

    Cone - this is the circle of random chance of where you will hit.
    Spread - this is the amount of enlargement of the cone during burst/automatic fire.
    Recoil - this is the amount that the gun will move around during fire. This is not the same as the cone.
    Fall off range - this is the range at which the damage of the weapon is decreased.
    ADS - zoom in with red dot, iron sights, etc.
    hip fire - no ADS.
    spray and pray weapons - weapons that have such a high rate of fire that saturating the cone is better than burst fire.

    Ok. Now there are 5 main types of weapons with generalized expected behavior. These are generalizations, not required for all weapons in that category.

    1) Assault rifles - accurate at medium to long range. Medium damage with a medum fall off range.
    2) Sub automatic (SMG) - accurate at short to medium range. Medium damage with a short fall off range.
    3) Snipers (rifles) - perfect at long range in ADS. high damage. slow shot/burst. slow reload. larger cone for hip.
    4) Heavy (HMG) - not as accurate (or largely only at short range), but needs to be reasonable. heavy damage, short fall off range. shotguns fall under this as well.
    5) pistols - very accurate at short to medium range. very short fall off range and small damage.

    Attachments - what I would expect/want them to do.
    IS, zoomed IS - should not affect the weapon stats in anyway.
    Red dot, etc. - should affect the time to bring up ADS only.
    Grips - should affect the recoil only (more on that later), maybe take slightly longer to bring up ads to compensate. Grips do not affect recoil in ADS.
    Drums - should affect the speed of reload only.
    Tape mags - should affect the speed of reload to faster. not sure how to realistically to offset - maybe slightly smaller mags?

    What should happen?

    First of all, lets talk recoil. many people have cones and recoil as the same thing, which they shouldn't be. Most games have at least a bit of recoil. This is a good thing - IF ITS DONE RIGHT. Recoil is best when its in a predictable fashion. The best example of recoil is in Day of Defeat, where the heavy guns have a predictable vertical recoil. This way the skilled user can move the mouse down to compensate. Why is this good? Well, it still makes long range shots difficult to maintain. Single shots are still accomplished, but only the most skilled and experienced heavy users can burst fire and hit most of the shots. Full automatic is very difficult for a sustained amount of time. Whats not good recoil, is when its NOT predictable, or uncontrollable where the gun kicks in any direction, in a fast fashion where you cannot redirect the weapon to the center to compensate. Some randomness is ok, if its in one direction for long enough that you can recenter the weapon. Again, this is not the same thing as the cone. This is where the grip comes in. If it was done correctly, a realistic grip would affect the recoil of the weapon only not the hip fire cone.

    First, all weapons should have a smaller cone. Larger cones just make for more random results. Spread may be increased to encourage burst firing, but overall, weapons should have fall off ranges, spread, damage, fire rates, and recoil to create diversity among the weapons. Also, GENERALLY, weapons that do more damage should have higher recoil and spreads, not necessarily larger cones (but some should). ADS also should be close to perfect accuracy no matter what weapon (except maybe the heavy/HMGs), with fall off ranges and slightly more vertical recoil to compensate.

    The way it is now - no vertical recoil or very very minute. To compensate you have larger cones of fire. If you increase vertical recoil, and dramatically for the HMGs, it will add more skill and less randomness.

    Next, the rate of fire needs to be addressed. If you have a medium sized cone, then its easy to saturate that cone. There are some ideas you can do fix this. The first is with center based cones, you are more likely to hit at the center of the cone in burs,t and as you go full auto, you are more likely to hit at the edge of the cone. This isnt the best way to address this. The reason being is that there is still a random element it wont hit toward the center. If its more than likely to hit toward teh center, why not just make the cone smaller so the user knows for sure where the "real" cone is? Also, during full auto, the spread must be increased either a lot so that the saturation of the cone is so large that it spreads to larger than the enemy you are spraying at. This makes it so that the burst mode is used to keep the cone small enough to encompass just the enemy. This can be fixed to have the max spread/cone much larger over time. Most of the weapons max out way to quickly (ie the Carb). Increase the max spread/cone but decrease the initial cone. This coupled with some recoil, fall off ranges, and increasing the spread will help balance out the various SMGs.

    The HMGs should have a short fall off range with a lot of recoil. This makes it so that in close quarters they are deadly if they are used by a skilled person.

    Snipers, these are almost fine as is. Some could use a bit more accuracy boost at the expense of more recoil or a bit larger cone.

    Pistols, these also could be more accurate (smaller cone).

    Damages in general are ok. In order to balance the smaller cones (more accurate), fall off ranges could be slightly adjusted.

    OK, so this is a bunch of generalizations I made without anything specific, which I know isnt exactly what Badman wanted. However, I wanted to address the cones and recoil and attachments so that there is at least a philosophical understanding of what I want. I know that not everyone will agree with me, but I know a lot of people want weapon accuracy tweaked to be better in general so that its more satisfactory.

    If you want specifics, the best way to accomplish this is to give us some cvars we can tweak - even if its with cheats set on, so that we can test them and then Ill be happy to send you specific numbers. Right now, its hard to say "a bit more... no stop... too much now" over and over again on the forums.

    Thanks

  2. #2

    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    Good post, especially when talking about recoil. I come from CSS and the game is fantastic because weapons are powerful and accurate but not easy to spray with.

    The only thing that bothered me was this quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahabib View Post
    The HMGs should have a short fall off range with a lot of recoil. This makes it so that in close quarters they are deadly if they are used by a skilled person.
    LMGs (HMGs is an incorrect term when referring to squad automatic weapons) are not supposed to be CQC weapons. They're designed to provide medium to long range surpressing fire. They should be similar to rifles but more cumbersome to use.

    Let's say that accuracy when moving should be poor but pretty good when stationary. Recoil should be significant but predictable regardless of movement and damage falloff is comparable to rifles. As such they are poor in CQC (like they are in real life) but are excellent when covering an area.

    Regards,
    Nexo

  3. #3

    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexolate View Post
    The only thing that bothered me was this quote.

    LMGs (HMGs is an incorrect term when referring to squad automatic weapons) are not supposed to be CQC weapons. They're designed to provide medium to long range surpressing fire. They should be similar to rifles but more cumbersome to use.

    Let's say that accuracy when moving should be poor but pretty good when stationary. Recoil should be significant but predictable regardless of movement and damage falloff is comparable to rifles. As such they are poor in CQC (like they are in real life) but are excellent when covering an area.

    Regards,
    Nexo
    fair enough, my suggestions are after all just suggestions. I dont really like the idea of "suppressive" weapons because in a video game, they dont really work that well for that purpose. However, I am sure there are tweaks to make them better (ie high recoil, bigger cone, but smaller/shorter spread). Keep in mind that only heavies can use them and they are affected in mobility, so in close quarters, they will still lose out to an smg unless someone is stupid enough to run straight on.
    Last edited by Rahabib; 15th Aug 2011 at 18:45.

  4. #4

    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    why not give all LMG's a slight knockback and the gottlung a knock down effect. (in b4 tokmak lol i stole his idea!!)
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexolate View Post
    Let's say that accuracy when moving should be poor but pretty good when stationary.
    This I agree with, the heavy weapons in this game should be used as suppressive weapons at medium to long range and to be effective they should be fired from stationary positions for better accuracy.
    >CnN< Ceppy

  6. #6

    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by Cep View Post
    This I agree with, the heavy weapons in this game should be used as suppressive weapons at medium to long range and to be effective they should be fired from stationary positions for better accuracy.
    I think heavy weapons should be a little more accurate in general, but I don't think the heavy should have to stay stationary. The heavy already moves incredibly slowly, making him stand still would put him at more of a disadvantage. I don't think anyone should be able to run and gun with a heavy weapon, but heavies cannot given their movement speed as it is anyway, so let heavies lumber around with their (slightly more accurate) heavy weapons.

  7. #7

    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by morguen87 View Post
    I think heavy weapons should be a little more accurate in general, but I don't think the heavy should have to stay stationary. The heavy already moves incredibly slowly, making him stand still would put him at more of a disadvantage. I don't think anyone should be able to run and gun with a heavy weapon, but heavies cannot given their movement speed as it is anyway, so let heavies lumber around with their (slightly more accurate) heavy weapons.
    Fair point. They probably are more accurate when stationary already, so further enhancing this would just cause problems as you said.

    Regards,
    Nexo

  8. #8

    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    4) Heavy (HMG) - not as accurate (or largely only at short range), but needs to be reasonable. heavy damage, short fall off range. shotguns fall under this as well.
    In reality perhaps, but if we're going by realistic weaponry then the damage caused by these weapons would be too powerful for a game. They don't just puncture a body, they tear whole pieces from you.

    To fit in a game role heavy weapons need to have low accuracy on the move and high accuracy once stable. The chinzor clearly is the more mobile of the heavy weapons so should be punished less for moving. But the maximus and the gotling should be very much stationary weapons in all aspects.

  9. #9

    Re: weapons and attachments - where it went wrong

    Silencers are not used at all imo. Or enough in this game. One of the areas as far as attachments that seems to give zero advantage ostensibly? What if a boost to accuracy was given at close range, say 3-8 feet with a silencer attached on a gun, otherwise, the silencer works as it does currently?

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