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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

  1. #61

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    I'll just reclarify some stats for people here:

    Light HP: 120
    Medium HP: 140
    Heavy HP: 180

    Incapactitated HP: ~200HP effective (~100HP + incoming damage halved)
    Downed Fire HP: ~100HP

    Regards,
    Nexo

  2. #62
    pragmatic incrementalist thesuzukimethod's Avatar
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    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    again, i am a bi-polar, flip flopping, waffle on this one.... last week i was about to respec DF off all my chars b/c i was so sick of not getting a chance to revive, and was having verrrrrry limited success doing any damage with it...and i've been very successful using (exploiting?) DF in the past...just ask AWM...

    it's hard to argue something is OP in this case (and I have agreed with others (Apoc) that DF is OP in the past....again, see first comment on this thread)

    my biggest surprise was the level of health that you retain in DF (i.e. effectively 1/2 of regular health). I would have assumed it was 1/3 - 1/4 of health of regular incap....

    edited to add: thanks nexo...a clearer version of what i was trying to say re: 1/2 health.

  3. #63
    FEAR THE BEARD! AmishWarMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    If you were a Batman Arch-Villian, TSM, you would totally be The Waffler! ^_^

  4. #64

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by sereNADE View Post
    Fun is fragging your enemy. Annoyance is having to often put as much or more energy into gibbing them. Go ahead, BRINK, give us the countermeasure.. a rank 4 ability of instant gib kills.
    Can't have an insta-gib ability. EVERYONE would have it and it would ruin the Medic's Revive and Op's Comms Hack ability.

    My suggestions for DF in no particular order:

    1) Nerf the damage of DF guns in half.

    AND/OR

    2) Make the screen blurrier with no orange icons on screen when the DF person is aiming at enemies.

    AND/OR

    3) Make the crosshairs wobble during DF like the player is losing consciousness and can barely hold their gun.

    AND/OR

    4) Give nearby players an audible warning like the "He's got a Cortex Bomb!" one. Leader can say "He's got Downed Fire!" or whatever works.

  5. #65
    pragmatic incrementalist thesuzukimethod's Avatar
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    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    devil's advocate sounds cooler...or just **** stirrer.

    given what we now know about health levels....my suggestion would be for some incremental decreases in DF health levels to try and find a sweet spot. if we take the current model as effectively 200 and 100 (no DF and DF), changing that to 200 and 85 to start....and see how that works

    at my core, i'm a pragmatically radical incrementalist.

    "Change everything! just do it really slowly and in small steps!

  6. #66
    FEAR THE BEARD! AmishWarMachine's Avatar
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    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    I think first and foremost, they need to kill the artificial reduction in bullet damage to the incapacitated.

    From there, tweak the incap/DF HP values.

  7. #67

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by SinDonor View Post
    2) Make the screen blurrier with no orange icons on screen when the DF person is aiming at enemies.
    I can imagine that'd be a real problem on Friendly Fire servers. Otherwise fair suggestions.
    Could always just reduce Downed Fire's HP.

    Regards,
    Nexo

  8. #68

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Wasn't serious about instant gib ability but there are pip taxing methods where it could work but not very well. BRINK could have used a body type dependent ability system outside of SMART and weapon availability. Downed Fire would have had it's place then because it would make sense that a medium or heavy would have the constitution to keep firing after being taken down but only enough strength to fire a pistol.
    Last edited by sereNADE; 16th Aug 2011 at 22:24.
    bhº

  9. #69

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexolate View Post
    I can imagine that'd be a real problem on Friendly Fire servers. Otherwise fair suggestions.
    Could always just reduce Downed Fire's HP.

    Regards,
    Nexo
    Or a BONUS in Friendly Fire so DF folks don't go ape-shnitt with it.

    Friendly Fire and me don't mix. If I'm not killing my friends with the Lobster, I'm head-shotting them as they walk through my fire.

  10. #70

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by sachewan View Post
    I never have a problem with downed fire but I played competitive ET and always gib is something that is pounded into your brain very early on in competitive Rtcw/ET.
    I still play RTCW and like you probably don't consider the job done till you've gibbed, but then that was due to the fact that a medic could revive instantly and with 2/3rds health and a spawn shield for 2s it was a fairly powerful motivator - as opposed to brink where the server lag leads to you waiting before throwing the syringe, after which the person receiving it needs to act on it which gives a further 1-2s before getting up - during and after which there is no spawn shield...

    rambling about gibbing etiquette aside, that still leaves the frequent situation where you haven't killed the person(s)...

  11. #71

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oschino1907 View Post
    Way less then 99%, dont forget at times you may both be almost dead or you run out of ammo shooting them, now they hit the ground with more life and auto switch to secondary ready to fire from a now prone position. Its not way off but def needs some tweaking, way to many pluses and very few draw backs.
    This is what I find happens all too often, especially in Competitive mode where two equally skilled gunners meet on the field of battle. I will win the 1v1 and then get killed by Downed Fire, and then they get a revive. And I am subject to watch this atrocity take place? I say NO! Down with Downed Fire! Ah, just a nerf. Please.

  12. #72

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by nephandys View Post
    If you are almost dead or have run out of ammo and are reloading or switching weapon just strafe back and forth or find cover. What's the difference between not having downed your enemy and having to reload vs. having your enemy on the ground with a gun still pointed at you and having to reload? Your tactics should remain the same as your enemy isn't dead yet. The only difference is he is now a stationary target rather than a moving one. For me the vast majority of the time this avoids their downed fire because of the current limitations on it (camera's center is different, vision blurred, spread ridiculous, etc.).

    For me this is another issue where people decide something kills them too much and they want it nerfed rather than trying to find a work around like strafing, moving behind cover, etc. I mean they could just take out downed fire and be done with it. The nerfs people are suggesting here would just make it worthless IMO. With some of the guns DF rocks, but try going down with the Ritchie as is and tell me how amazing DF is. I mean you can still get kills at maybe 3ft, but outside of that it's pure chance.

    The only time DF kills me is if I foolishly forget to gib someone or don't notice a downed player someone else forgot to gib.
    Yes and No. There are times I will blast two or three guys down in an area and there's no way to back up and Downed Fire becomes a huge problem. I will move to take out the one with DF, move where he should not be able to get me, and he's able to turn on a dime and shoot before I can get the finish off or you will have to blitz him with the rest of your ammo and pray there is enough left. I do use the Ritchie to headshot Downed Enemy including those with Downed Fire. But when you get the drop on some dudes and blast 2 or 3 to kingdom come, using both your Primary and Secondary (I do this all the time) you need to reload, or go for the gib, and you cross the distance to finish them off in time, usually from their blind side even, and they get you! Unlike Cortex bomb, there's no warning and distance away doesn't play a factor. The uncanny accuracy and mobility of a player in Downed Fire combined with a clean bill of health while laying down, makes it a tad OP.

  13. #73

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    Yes and No. There are times I will blast two or three guys down in an area and there's no way to back up...
    Don't back up. That's almost the same as staying stationary as far as the person aiming at you is concerned. Strafe, wall hop, slide, w/e as you can reload during all these activities. I am only discussing pub play here as it appears the competitive players (on PC at least) have pretty much decided it's cheap and it's banned at least in ESL.
    Last edited by nephandys; 16th Aug 2011 at 23:40.
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  14. #74

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    ^ Not just backing up, but in most situations. Strafe away, but Downed Fire is as accurate as if they were standing up, so the result is the same. If anything, they are stationery, and have little to lose and much to gain by taking their time and just blowing you away. Can defeat a perfectly executed push and successful kill to a wash, which is frustrating, but I can live with that, but its when it happens regardless of your attention to gibbing them and careful tactics to avoid falling prey to DF, that's the issue. A tad OP not just on PC but in Competitive mode on xbox just as much. Cortex bomb is cheap but easy to avoid, DF can be very difficult, and at times nigh impossible to stop.

  15. #75
    pragmatic incrementalist thesuzukimethod's Avatar
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    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    xanga brink stats site says accuracy when sliding, knocked down, etc is 10. Dunno if that includes DF. Dunno what an accuracy of "10" means*...but most of the guns are in the 1-3 range under normal (ADS/Hip) circumstances.

    (i dont know if the spread of a given weapon is adjusted by a factor of 10 (unlikely) or if all weapons have an accuracy of 10 in DF)

  16. #76

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfnemesis75 View Post
    ^ Not just backing up, but in most situations. Strafe away, but Downed Fire is as accurate as if they were standing up, so the result is the same. If anything, they are stationery, and have little to lose and much to gain by taking their time and just blowing you away. Can defeat a perfectly executed push and successful kill to a wash, which is frustrating, but I can live with that, but its when it happens regardless of your attention to gibbing them and careful tactics to avoid falling prey to DF, that's the issue. A tad OP not just on PC but in Competitive mode on xbox just as much. Cortex bomb is cheap but easy to avoid, DF can be very difficult, and at times nigh impossible to stop.
    We'll just have to disagree on this. Accuracy is not the same when you are downed as when you are standing up. The center of the camera changes to be the floor basically, your vision is all blurred, and the spread is like double in some cases. These are limits enough on DF in pub play IMO.
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  17. #77

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by nephandys View Post
    We'll just have to disagree on this. Accuracy is not the same when you are downed as when you are standing up. The center of the camera changes to be the floor basically, your vision is all blurred, and the spread is like double in some cases. These are limits enough on DF in pub play IMO.
    Ok. Fair enough. I am sticking by Downed Fire is a tad unfair more times than not even to a player actively going for the finishing move. I am very cognizant of a player about to use DF and that its best to leave no one alive, but with the gib curb stomp animation being inaccurate at times, and the quick reaction movement speed of an enemy in DF, its a tad unfair. I have tested many different counters, and too many times you can be unfairly punished for well planned efforts. Range of motion should be restricted in DF if not the power overall, so if I move behind them to make finishing blow, it neutralizes their ability to kill me no matter what just as in real life situation. Even though this is not real life. Still, a tad overpowered. Imo, there are two OP Rank 5 abilities, DF and Self Revive, but self revive doesn't auto kill and has a long cool down. Agree to disagree! Ha ha ha

  18. #78

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    If they improved the "active area" for the finishing move, then DF wouldn't be as bad. If I am aiming down at the floor where an incapped enemy is currently at, and I am within 5 feet of an incapped enemy, it should be pretty obvious that I am trying to go for the finisher. There's no logical reason that anyone would purposely want to gun-butt the floor. Even if the game forces me into 1 second of autopilot to get in the correct position, whatever works.

  19. #79

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    The curb stomp animation is something you have to take your time. Pulling out a Ritchie and headshoting an incap player is the fastest way to finish.

    It takes tons of bullets at times to kill a DF player if you are using an SMG. And this is further compounded if you drop 2 or more players all at once and one has DF. I was never a fan of Last Stand in COD either to be quite honest.

  20. #80

    Re: Downed Fire: Weapon Tweaks Please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahdo View Post
    We didn't have sliding killed downed because we wanted players to have to "commit" to the kill instead of doing it blithely and easily without a second thought. You've got to slow down and see it through to finish them off with melee. Though you can still do it fairly quickly if you practice... IIRC basically you've got to have them under your crosshair on a particular frame of the animation, so with timing, you can get it quicker.

    Basically the notion was that we didn't want it to be super easy to kill downed guys, so that there was a better chance that medics would get a chance to revive them. If everyone is incredibly easy to finish off, then what's the reason to have incapped state in the first place?

    That said, remember that headshots still work on a downed character, so if your angle is right, you can finish them quicker with guns. And even more important (I'm surprised how many people don't realize this), if they've got downed fire (which you can clearly see even if they're not shooting, because they still have their gun in their hands while they're down), definitely don't bother with a melee finisher at all, because they have almost no hitpoints, and just a quick burst should finish them off. That's the big negative balancer for downed fire, sure it's great and powerful, but you're as fragile as an egg shell, and anyone can finish you off quickly and easily from any distance. If you don't have downed fire, it's tougher to finish you off, and the enemy has to commit time or ammo to get it done.

    That's the thinking anyway...
    Thought I'd throw Rahdo's comments about DF from the slide finisher thread here (seen in above quote).

    @SinDonor - Don't ever try to melee someone from DF. Part of the point of the ability is to prevent people from doing that to you.

    @Wolf - if you want it to be realistic you really shouldn't restrict range of motion so that if you walk up behind someone they can't DF you while you do a melee OHK. In real life I would just roll over and shoot you in the face. Also range of motion is already restricted by the fact that A) you can't move and B) Your camera is centered on the floor basically.

    In PUB play DF is totally fine. Sometimes it kills me too, but the vast majority of the time (90%+) it doesn't. 100% of the time when I die from it it's because I forgot to gib someone or someone else did and I either didn't see the body or didn't notice they had gun in hand. The reasons I die from DF are almost always MY OWN fault (99% of the time). Therefore, I can't attribute any of DF's success to the ability being OP or unbalanced.
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