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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

  1. #1

    Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    EDIT: I have recently updated this thread to make it easier to read for you and added some stuff to make it more understandable.Here we go:

    Intro:

    Here are my thoughts on weapons their handlings and how to make them feel more predictable, make shooting more intense and upper the skill ceiling.I've posted this in the "Tighten spread less damage" thread but i am a little bit worried it gets overlooked by SD.

    Some of you may have already read those suggestions.I've put some time into finding solutions and thinking this over so i don't want those suggestions to be unheard by SD.

    In my opinion the aim is to find shooting mechanics that are predictable and comprehenisble for the player.When taking the control out of the players hands people get angry.No control or a lot of random factors is a huge factor why so many threads were made.

    Suggestions:

    In my opinion a solution would be to increase a controlable recoil instead of max spread and make SMG'S and other weapons that aren't supposed to be good on distance less effective on distance with the "range" value.

    So it doesn't matter if a SMG has almost no spread and is very accurate for long distance shooting as it doesn't deal as much damage on longer distances.

    By making SMG'S still very accurate on distance (almost no spread) but reduce their damage via the "range" value, = less damage on distance, and making it harder to hold down fire because of an increased recoil we would have an even better result in my opinion.

    To make it really perfectt this can be further tweaked so using hip firing has more recoil and using AS reduces recoil so AS still has it s place in the game and is useful for long distance shooting as it is easier to stay on a small target (small target because of the long distance to it) with less recoil.

    The more recoil while using hip firing suggestion would work with shotguns aswell.It is somewhat logical and not completely out of this world that a gun or a shotgun has more kick (recoil) when not shouldered/not using AS.

    This is a PC patch which i give SD mad respect for as this shows they understood that a PC shooter and a console shooter needs different shooting mechanics to be really satisfying for both crowds,something not many developers have understood.

    Here is a summary:

    • Instead of increasing max spread - Increase recoil.


    If a gun has stronger recoil the longer you shoot it, max spread becomes almost unneccesary and can be very low as an value.Note that this recoil has to move into one general direction so the player can compensate to the point the developer want s the gun to become hard to control/uncontrolable which means a lot recoil kicks in after time x.


    • Instead of increasing spread - use the "range value"


    By this SMG's/guns that aren't supposed to be that effective at long range are still accurate and predictable to shoot(skill) but just don't deal as much damage.

    • Instead of giving guns artifical buillet spread on distance so AS get s used -


    give guns a stronger recoil while hip firing that needs to be compensated and reduce recoil when a gun is shouldered/using AS.So AS are used for long distance shooting in order to have reduced recoil as the gun is shouldered so one can stay on a smaller target with the AS a lot easier.By this guns would have a simular spread and max spread while hip firing and AS but the recoil value changes.


    In my opinion this is more believable and makes more sense gameplay wise as a gun isn't magically chaning it's bullet spread becoming a completely different gun because using Ironsights, it s just that it is better to control, resulting in a better pattern.


    • If the SMG/weapon is still too powerful ,instead of increasing spread - reduce damage output


    More recoil that moves into one general direction means more skill is needed to handle the gun under sustained fire and it is actually skill if you can handle the gun with heavier recoil.

    lnstead of a max spread value which forces you to stop shooting because bullets are magically going all over the place.Again i am talking about a recoil which is moving into one general direction and can be compenstaed until time x where it gets harder.Not the lottery recoil of e.g. the Maximus that is going left and right.Recoil must be so that the gun is moving upwards.Or the gun is moving upwards and slightly to the right(one general direction)

    I think it adds to the often quoted skill ceiling and is simply more understandable for the players.If he hasn't compensated for the recoil and is aiming over the head, he won't score a headshot,instead of a random bullet spread pattern he can't influence.

    Reducing spread and using recoil and the "range value" instead could even help to make shotguns more predictable and comprehensible for the player and even add a difference between body and headshots to shotguns.If you didn't knew, shotguns don't have headshots at the moment.

    If you reduce the spread heavily of shotguns so all bullets are very close to the center of the crosshair/AS it is actually skill to do headshots.By reducing damage on distance via the "range value" you don't have to use a crazy bullet spread anymore.

    This would result in more comprehensible shotgun behavior,would make shotguns effective and skillfull to use at close range because headshots are still skill to pull off, make more predictable damage and they would still be weak on long range because of the "range" value reducing it s damage on distance.

    Automatic recoil correction:

    Recoil get s corrected by the game not by the player atm.E.G. You fire fast with the Ritchie Revolver in a close qaurter fight, press the mouse down to work against the recoil, when finished the game makes your crosshair/AS go towards direction floor.It is very frustrating to end up aiming at the ground, especially because Brink is a team game and often one encounters 2 players.When the next player arrives one is aiming towards the ground, not at the danger zone/spot.

    SD please remove this artifical recoil correction and let the player do it.When shooting guns that have recoil and one stops to gain a better spread again the crosshair automatically moves downards, away from the target because of this.

    Brink can be a fantastic opportunity for SD to really nail down shooting mechanics on the different platforms and have this important gameplay knowledge flow into their new projects, profiting immensly if done correctly.
    Last edited by RaKeD; 22nd Nov 2011 at 18:54.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I think that's one of the best, thought out posts I've read. And considering some of the usual childish name calling crap I read today by simpering little idiots, it makes for a very refreshing change to have an adult view on one of the most annoying issues in the game.

    I must rep you up friend! 1+
    >CnN< Ceppy

  3. #3

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by RaKeD View Post

    This is a PC patch which i give SD mad respect for as this shows they understood that a PC shooter and a console shooter needs different shooting mechanics to be really satisfying for both crowds,something not many developers have understood.
    This is the problem. They balanced the game for consoles, and so it is not optimal for a PC shooter. They need a large spread on consoles so that they don't have to be very accurate.

  4. #4
    Senior Member V1cK_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight View Post
    This is the problem. They balanced the game for consoles, and so it is not optimal for a PC shooter. They need a large spread on consoles so that they don't have to be very accurate.
    No they don't. That is a total myth. Sure accuracy is better on PC but you can still make a game with better shooting mechanics on console. RTCW Tides of War on XBOX 1 had tight spread and great movement and it played just fine on a controller.

    This whole idea that you need to noobify the console version is just not true. I don't blame you for thinking that though. Every game since Halo has done what you are saying so therefore if you don't know any better you would think that larger spreads on console are needed because of the controller.

    BTW I played RTCW on BOTH the PC and XBOX 1. I was good at both so I know what good movement/shooting looks like on the PC. I was able to replicate PC movement with the controller..>WAAAYYYY back on XBOX 1.

  5. #5

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Thank You Cep.

  6. #6

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight View Post
    This is the problem. They balanced the game for consoles, and so it is not optimal for a PC shooter. They need a large spread on consoles so that they don't have to be very accurate.
    I think the best solution for this is to have different combat(weapons, i'm referring to weapons) characteristics/balances to the two platforms. That way, we can have changes that is good for the console version, and changes that is good for the PC version. And I think they could do that, what "with the power of netvars" and all.

  7. #7

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    All other signs (anemic turrets, explosives that rarely kill, MG nest whose main advantage is unlimited ammo, not even heavy weapons deal brutal damage, regenerating health) indicate that Brink is meant to cap player skill. It's meant to be a forgiving, nice game "for the whole family". Working as intended, wrong game for you.
    Formerly b0rsuk, lost the old account

  8. #8

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by RaKeD View Post
    Wall of text
    Agreed. There are too many random factors outside the players control when it comes to shooting. You have both a random spread plus random recoil that canīt be compensated for by any amount of skill. To make things worse these two factors have nothing to do with each other. Your spread is random regardless what your weapon is sighted on at the time it is fired so while the seperate recoil might affect/change the general direction your shots are being fired at it isnīt the cause of the spread in any way.

    When firing real weapons what causes spread is the recoil which causes your aim to be altered after each shot and not the gun just randomly throwing bullets in random directions.

    What the guns do visually doesnīt match with what the bullets do. This disconnect makes the guns feel unresponsive which in turn makes the game less enjoyable.

    One of the biggest things still holding this game back is the shooting/gun mechanics. If the shooting is right people will usually keep play a game regardless of how repetative maps or objectives are.

    Quote Originally Posted by jazevec View Post
    All other signs (anemic turrets, explosives that rarely kill, MG nest whose main advantage is unlimited ammo, not even heavy weapons deal brutal damage, regenerating health) indicate that Brink is meant to cap player skill. It's meant to be a forgiving, nice game "for the whole family". Working as intended, wrong game for you.
    If the gun handling was right those probably wouldnīt matter. Lower damage overall was an intended design decision which I donīt mind, though I wish explosions had more visual oomph to them (I know gernades donīt cause huge fireballs when the explode like in movies but being a game I expect a little more than a flash of light). If the heavy weapons were more accurate (less spread) they would cause more damage. The problem is with weapons like the gotlung most of your shots are hitting the walls regardless of how good your aim is.

    One other thing, lack of bullet penetration hurts heavy weapons a lot too. If you have a dancing skinny soaking up most of your gotlung bullets (those that arenīt going into the walls) any other enemies behind him wonīt take damage until he dies. So what should be an effective room clearing weapon like a minigun ends up not being very effective at all since you can only really kill one person at a time. Even teammates crossing your line of fire (friendly fire on or off) will stop bullets from traveling any further and hitting the enemy.
    Last edited by taodemon; 4th Jul 2011 at 18:12.

  9. #9

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    When firing real weapons what causes spread is the recoil which causes your aim to be altered after each shot and not the gun just randomly throwing bullets in random directions.
    In real life your aiming isn't decided by a 100% stable mouse and you don't have a crosshair in your vision either.

  10. #10

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by taodemon View Post
    If the gun handling was right those probably wouldnīt matter. Lower damage overall was an intended design decision which I donīt mind,
    You are missing the point. If it was just (accurate) weapons with lower damage, skilled players would dominate. It would just take them longer to kill. They could dominate even more, because the element of surprise would be worth less.

    I think they wanted a game where a bad player can be reasonably successful against good players. By definition, most players are not above average. They want to please average and bad players by giving them equal-ish chance of winning a firefight.
    Formerly b0rsuk, lost the old account

  11. #11

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by V1cK_dB View Post
    No they don't. That is a total myth. Sure accuracy is better on PC but you can still make a game with better shooting mechanics on console. RTCW Tides of War on XBOX 1 had tight spread and great movement and it played just fine on a controller.

    This whole idea that you need to noobify the console version is just not true. I don't blame you for thinking that though. Every game since Halo has done what you are saying so therefore if you don't know any better you would think that larger spreads on console are needed because of the controller.

    BTW I played RTCW on BOTH the PC and XBOX 1. I was good at both so I know what good movement/shooting looks like on the PC. I was able to replicate PC movement with the controller..>WAAAYYYY back on XBOX 1.
    Well, you don't "have" to have larger spread, but that seems the only reason why they would do this since obviously it is not optimal for PC players. Perhaps consoles can get by with tighter spread, but for most players it would probably be frustrating missing 90% of the bullets as they spray back and forth across the target.

    I will refer you to this thread showing console play:

    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=29267

    The method of shooting seems to be to stand still and sway back and forth across the target trying to stop on the enemy as best you can. This is much easier if the spread is huge as you'll get more bullets on target if your aim is slightly off.


    Slightly off topic, I used to play UT2k3 with a friend of mine who was extremely skilled, could headshot ppl all day long. Then once I went to his house and he was playing COD4 on Xbox, it was so sad how bad he was compared to his PC skill level, yet he was better than everyone else still so he enjoyed it.

  12. #12

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarel View Post
    I think the best solution for this is to have different combat(weapons, i'm referring to weapons) characteristics/balances to the two platforms. That way, we can have changes that is good for the console version, and changes that is good for the PC version. And I think they could do that, what "with the power of netvars" and all.
    Is there anyway we can tweak a PC server for this currently? Maybe we can just setup our own promod or something. I assume all the netvars we would need are locked.

  13. #13

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by tokamak View Post
    In real life your aiming isn't decided by a 100% stable mouse and you don't have a crosshair in your vision either.
    And if you get shot you usually die too. Running and parkouring while hipfiring would probably make it so you would be lucky to hit a target at all. Some concessions must be made for gameplay purposes.

    A small amount of spread/deviation can be ok to supposedly "simulate" some of the other factors that go into shooting that donīt transition well into games like breathing, trigger control, sight alignment/picture though I would prefer if they balanced this by increasing recoil instead, but brink has gone way beyond that. Not only do they have recoil that doesnīt reflect what the sights are doing but they have you shooting 5.56 rounds out of an artillary barrel so after the first 2 shots, even on semi weapons, you start hitting everything but what your sighted on.

    If you have ever fired a real weapon with iron sights (and have basic knowledge of how ironsights work or weapon sights in general) I would liken it to trying to hit a target where after your 2nd shot your front and rear sights start randomly adjusting themselves in random directions.

    This isnīt so apparent when hipfiring since you donīt see your sights, but if you have used ARīs at all with ADS for any reasonable amount of time in the game you will have noticed this.
    Last edited by taodemon; 4th Jul 2011 at 20:50.

  14. #14

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight View Post
    Is there anyway we can tweak a PC server for this currently? Maybe we can just setup our own promod or something. I assume all the netvars we would need are locked.
    I don't think SD would do/allow that(in the meantime, hopefully "in the meantime"!). So I guess the best we could do is to just hope the Splash Damage team is reading this.

  15. #15

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I would venture a guess that what we can tweek will be very limited until they release an SDK if that is even something they are looking into.

  16. #16

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    SD can change those values.They added Cvars so they can react to the community.

    Not all weapon changes can be done via Cvars but it shows that they are prepared and opend minded.

    A SDK would be great but atm the focus should defnitly be on the game itself.

  17. #17

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    nice post. agree 100%. wont happen. It would mean that a complete rebalancing of the weapons and gameplay and I doubt that SD wants to go down that road. Wait for the SDK and let the community do it - if we ever get one.

  18.   This is the last staff post in this thread.   #18

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Just wanted to throw a quick thank you out there for taking the time and writing up your thoughts in such detail (this also goes for all the other posters who've been debating the weapons!). We do try to read everything even though we don't always respond. I think this was already pointed out by Exedore the other day, but we are looking into a few PC-specific tweaks to address some of the issues that have been raised.
    Head of UX/UI
    Splash Damage Ltd
    @stevehessel

  19. #19
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Ooo so kimbo weapons could be on the agenda
    >CnN< Ceppy

  20. #20

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by tokamak View Post
    In real life your aiming isn't decided by a 100% stable mouse and you don't have a crosshair in your vision either.
    No but it's decided by your ability to account for all variables and having a 100% stable stance for that moment you pull the trigger and there IS a sight.

    So maybe you were being sarcastic because it's a really easy comparison.

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