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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

  1. #41

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I wouldn't say Gerund rewards good aim. Rather, it punishes bad aim. Long range may be another matter. And light types are best at closing the distance.
    Formerly b0rsuk, lost the old account

  2. #42
    Needs Stroyent... NIDCLXVI's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    How about, make Quake Wars 2 /end
    NIDCLXVI

    If we don't battle to the death they will kill us both!

    It's balanced if everybody is complaining equally.


  3. #43

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by TeoH View Post
    [.. much text , images, examples and explanation ...]
    Some point to take into consideration between Carb and the rest, is that now, Carb is shooting in a statistically "flat" pattern inside the whole Cone of Fire, while other SMG like Kross do fire statistically more centered, making then better (a bit) while burst shooting.
    that said, to me, it looks like the biggest issue is the time it takes on SMG for the CoF to shrink back when not shooting, making tap-firing not competitive with Spray&Pray.

    As for AR, from what I've seen while testing shooting at walls and checking bullet patterns, AR like Rhett or Gerund are very similar in patterns to Kross and Bulpdaun, and there again, their CoF shrink rate is very slow. I don't remember extensively testing when crouched, though
    Where AR really shine is when shooting ADS. The hip burst firing isn't going to compete against a Kross, most of the time, because of lack of rate of fire, mostly. And if that close, you're not going to compete against a Spray&Pray Carb9 either, as shown by TeoH.

  4. #44

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I "upped" this thread as it fits into the times - a weapon tweak patch just got released.

    I think those changes SD came up with made the gunplay better.

    I know Brink is not the hottest title at the moment but the game got a lot better with those tweaks.

    Yes MG Nest's still suck, Yes the mossington is still completely useless and unpredicatble but overall it is the right direction.

    However there is still a lot of randomness and luck involved thats why i upped this one.
    Last edited by RaKeD; 21st Nov 2011 at 01:51.

  5. #45

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I'm pretty much repeating what I said here http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/s...743#post377743
    Quote Originally Posted by RaKeD View Post

    • Instead of increasing max spread - Increase recoil.

    If a gun has stronger recoil the longer you shoot it, max spread becomes almost unneccesary and can be very low as an value.
    1.While unlike spread, recoil is partly controllable, recoil still introduces a fair amount of luck (which way the and how far the gun moves)
    2.Shooting while trying to stabilize the gun as its flies all over the place may not be "fun," even if it is skill based. I personally like the no-recoil style of ET

    3. I don't think spread itself is what introduces the luck aspect in Brink that everybody is complaining about so I don't think you need to necessarily replace it, but rather teak it. Games can have BOTH spread AND a very low level of luck if they implement spread correctly by making burst-fire the best way to shoot. (I think counter-strike is an example of a game that does this).

    If burst fire is the best way to shoot it doesn't matter if the MAX spread is extremely high because a skilled player will never reach that spread value. As long as the spread value is low for the bursts, little luck will be involved.

    What makes Brink not force burst fire?
    1. THE MAX SPREAD VALUE IS NOT HIGH ENOUGH WHEN COMPARED TO THE STARTING SPREAD.
    2. THE SPREAD RECOVERY RATE IS TOO SLOW

    It may seem counter-intuitive, but increasing the max spread can actually REDUCE luck if paired with a fast recovery rate. It basically acts as a deterrent from ever firing when that high spread value is activated. As it is in Brink, even with the spread, it doesn't make sense to fire in bursts. Your best shot to kill an opponent it to just to hold down the trigger and watch your bullets fly all over the place. If you let go of the trigger, by the time the spread is reduced your opponent will have shot you several times and even then the reduction in spread is marginal.

    Also, and I think this is the most important point

    EVEN IF BRINK FORCED BURST FIRE, LUCK WOULD STILL BE A MAJOR FACTOR BECAUSE THE STARTING SPREAD IS SO HIGH

    Yes, some guns are better than others, and you may need to have a higher starting spread value on some guns to retain this "dynamicness," but there's no need to have them as high as they are. One way to do this is to make your most accurate gun have a spread of 0, and then work from there. You should also limit the amount of starting spread that any gun can have. If a gun isn't balanced and has reached this maximum starting spread you should balance it in other ways, like reducing the damage.

    Now, I'M NOT SAYING THAT BRINK SHOULD FORCE BURST-FIRE!!! If spread is consistently low there is no need for it in the first place. While burst-fire games might have comparable amounts of luck to "consistently-low-spread-games" its a VERY different type of shooting mechanic, and I just don't like it. There are plenty of games that force burst-fire already and I find sd games unique because they don't!

    Quote Originally Posted by RaKeD View Post
    • Instead of increasing spread - use the "range value"


    By this SMG's/guns that aren't supposed to be that effective at long range are still accurate and predictable to shoot(skill) but just don't deal as much damage.
    YES! YES! YES! I've been saying this for years!!! You can completely replicate the effects of spread without the luck, with a system that modifiess bullet damage

    Note though that not only does spread effectively weaken a gun's range, but since spread generally increases as the trigger is held down, it also makes those later bullets less effective. If you would want to retain this effect, only having a range value would not suffice. Not only would you need a "bullet-decay-over-distance" algorithm to reduce the range, but a "bullet-decay-over-continuous-shooting" algorithm to make those first shots more powerful.

    One more thing spread does is if you are one-pixel off from someones head and shoot 10 shots, you will probably at least get one headshot, and if you replaced that with a damage system like I've described you would get none, but in my book that is a good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by RaKeD View Post
    • If the SMG/weapon is still too powerful ,instead of increasing spread - reduce damage output
    YES. I think I made this point too.


    ***LOL. Just realized how old this thread is. That badman comment encouraged me that they were still listening about weapon tweaks even after the last update. Aw well....I hope they still are...this game has so much potential.***
    Last edited by aviynw; 22nd Nov 2011 at 10:45.

  6. #46

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I have always liked skill based recoil as apposed to the ET style no recoil cones. However, at least ET had small starting cones and could use burst fire. But in comparison I got a lot more enjoyment from Day of Defeat than I did from W:ET because there was more to it than just burst firing. Thats me. ET vets can flame me now.

  7. #47

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    One big selling point of the recoil is that it makes shooting more intense and is adding a new skill factor to Brink.Recoil means you "feel" the weapon and its power.You have to work it and get used to the different recoil patterns of the different guns(skill).Brinks gunplay feels sterile to me, all you do is holding down the trigger,spray and strafe left right.There is no need to burst fire or to control the weapon.

    Recoil makes the gunplay more intense while achieving the same goals.When it comes to burst firing, if you want a weapon to be fired in bursts you can add a certain recoil increase at a certain time x. where it get s harder/impossible to hold the gun on target on a certain distance.At this certain distance you have to use AS(Aiming down the sights for less recoil) or shoot in bursts.

    I pretty much agree to everything you said aviynw.

  8. #48

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by RaKeD View Post
    One big selling point of the recoil is that it makes shooting more intense and is adding a new skill factor to Brink.Recoil means you "feel" the weapon and its power.You have to work it and get used to the different recoil patterns of the different guns(skill).Brinks gunplay feels sterile to me, all you do is holding down the trigger,spray and strafe left right.There is no need to burst fire or to control the weapon.
    Did you play much ET? Did you find ET Sterile? There's no recoil in ET. And yeah, I see the merit of recoil, just not my style, and unfortunately for me it seems to be the style of most games nowadays. Though I would probably prefer some sort of controllable recoil over spread

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