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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

  1. #21

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    It's great that you're looking at PC specific changes, this is a discussion that really shouldn't matter much to the console community so it makes sense to leave them alone and tweak for the PC specifically on this issue. I'm not really playing anymore after the scene died but i do love arguing about design so i'm just going to throw in my 2p on the current gun mechanics: (This post is too long and nobody will read it)

    First off, people are still running around with Carbs, and i'd like to elaborate on that (I don't consider it a problem that people are all running around with the same weapon, i just need it to make a point). The Carb has high damage per shot and access to a large clip, along with a reasonable reload time, the tradeoff for this appears to be that it is meant to be less accurate than the other SMGs which deal less DPS, or have smaller clips etc. In theory, the initial firing cone of the Carb is much larger than that of the other SMGs when crouched or standing still. Before firing if you look at the crosshair there seems to be a vast difference compared to say a Kross. Here's a shot:



    Now i'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the crosshair size is in some vauge way related to the size of the firing cone and weapon spread. In which case the difference in accuracy suggested by that shot is quite dramatic, certainly reasonable considering the 22% higher damage per shot that a Carb throws out. However, this isn't a crate humping game where you kill people with 0.3 second bursts to the head while crouched and zoomed behind cover, this is a game where you run and strafe around as a light class and have to continually fire at people for a reasonable length of time to take them down, at least from across the room. So... here's what the Carb and the Kross look like after about half a second of firing while moving:



    No, they're not the same gun. Now the immediate response to this is 'you need to burst fire', which according to the forum is the height of FPS skill, although personally i'm not seeing the great executional challenge in intermittantly releasing the firebutton, but nevermind. If you look at the crosshair spread while 'burst firing' the Kross, and assuming the crosshair does in some way relate to the firing cone, you'll see that it reaches max spread in less than a second, and it takes about the same or longer period of not firing to return to normal, so in order to maintain a spread that is noticably smaller than someone holding down fire on a Carb, you need to spend around 50% or more of the fight not firing. This is with a weapon that also deals less damage per shot. It's immediately obvious to anyone who has actually fought with these weapons that trying to burst fire the Kross from any range where you would realistically use an SMG is going to result in you losing to anyone with similar aim who continually fires at you.

    As for the other SMGs, the Tampa looks like this:



    You might as well just close your eyes and pray.

    The Bulpdaun is some strange sniper rifle alternative that is very accurate scoped but has no ammo at all and a half hour reload, its firing cone from the hip expands quickly like the Kross, so using it close while moving around gives it barely any advantage over the Carb in terms of spread, while it deals less damage and immediately goes out of ammo.

    The SMG that nearly gets the burst firing mechanic 'right' is the Galactic, which expands slowly and contracts very quickly, so there is no great penalty for releasing the fire button briefly to drop down to normal spread. However the 'normal spread' of the weapon from the hip is still fairly large, worse still once you add the penalty for moving and a brief period of firing. The average accuracy of the gun is nowhere near good enough to compensate for having the lowest damage per shot of any weapon in the game. It can't touch a carb at any realistic range.

    So that's the situation, the Carb wins. It is used by anyone playing to win because it is the best light weapon, but let me just say that it is not a problem that the game has a 'best weapon', that's not an issue. The issue is, the best weapon has a big inaccurate firing cone that doesn't really reward tight aim (and actually, so do all the less-than-best weapons once a real fight starts). You need to remember that although people here are complaining about weapons being inaccurate, they are not simply asking for *An* accurate weapon to exist in the game, they won't use it unless it's match viable. It's not hypocritical for players to be calling for tight fire cones while specifically selecting and using a weapon with huge random spread - the comp scene will use whatever the most effective option is for winning the game, that's how competitive plays works, it's up to the developers to ensure that for people playing at that skill level, the 'best' choices for winning the game also lead to interesting and rewarding gameplay.

    So it doesn't matter if you have a few weapons that are outright silly like the Tampa. What your goal should be is to end up with a weapon, just 1 weapon is fine, that when used by players on a mouse and keyboard with a high level of FPS skill, is accurate enough that it allows people who can aim to surpass the advantages of the other weapons by their own skill, and becomes the preferred choice for high level play. You just need that 1 weapon. Currently such a weapon does not exist, as it is not possible for a skilled player to exploit any of the other SMGs in a way that allows them to surpass the current Carb, they aren't accurate enough to make that possible.

  2. #22

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    ^ conclude your statment. after readung two times i didnt get your argument. though your data had many good points.

    really all one needs to do to kill a carb strafing noob is grab cover and lean with your AR and destroy him

    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/i...ine=1310569036
    thanks for the sig wolf

    we taken down some clowns

  3. #23

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by its al bout security View Post
    ^ conclude your statment.
    Ok... none of the weapons are actually accurate, even the ones which are supposed to be significantly more accurate than a Carb aren't in practice. The lack of accuracy from the other SMGs mean none of them beat the plain damage advantage that the Carb has. We want an accurate weapon that allows player aim to have a greater impact on the outcome of a fight, but that doesn't mean all the weapons have to be accurate. As long as 1 weapon is accurate enough that it can outperform the alternatives when in the hands of someone who is a good shot, the game will work better for comp. It's implied that the other guns fit this description, because they offer 'greater accuracy' over the Carb's damage, the post was meant to show that this isn't the case, and that if you want one of these lower damage guns to be capable of out shooting a Carb, it needs to have a far tighter spread.

    As in the OP, you deal with the range implications of tight spread by tweaking the damage fall off over long range.

  4. #24

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    It's so easy to try and find the problem. The (really) tricky part is to try and solve it without creating a "ripple" effect against/in relation to other weapons. :|

  5. #25

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarel View Post
    It's so easy to try and find the problem. The (really) tricky part is to try and solve it without creating a "ripple" effect against/in relation to other weapons. :|
    Well i can throw out a suggested set of changes but it's going to sound very similar to the OPs post, because i agree with most of his points. The main reason for my long rant is because there's plenty of comments around the forums about 'skilled players' aiming and burst firing with non-Carb weapons that supposedly reward their effort and ability with superior performance. Which is actually nonsense, i'm just laying down the current state of the game.

    Lets say you take the Kross and decide to turn it into a comp weapon:

    Leave damage as it is
    Reduce clip to 60 with drum
    Reduce starting spread so that the cone while moving is equivalent to the current cone while crouched (1.2)
    Greatly reduce the rate at which the firing cone expands while shooting, and increase the rate that it retracts after releasing fire, the rate of the Galactic is good, but keeping a tighter starting cone and smaller max
    Bias the spread towards the centre of the crosshair
    Remove any random jitter
    Make the gun slowly recoil upwards at a consistant rate while fire is held down, do not auto correct the viewpoint, allow people to manually compensate. Doesn't apply while scoped.
    Tweak 'range' stat so that damage is consistant across the distance of a typical room (say from 1 platform to the next on the top level of Aquarium first obj, room with hanging fish model), and then falls off sharply after that distance.

    You now have an accurate close range weapon, that encourages you to aim the initial hits near the head, is worth 'bursting' with when firing from any range, has recoil that players can learn to compensate for through theri own control, and isn't a rapid fire sniper rifle at range due to damage fall off.

    Oh yea, and 1 other change to greatly improve gunplay and aiming for all involved: Let us tweak the HUD to prevent the giant floating opaque UI elements from blocking all vision and making it impossible to see what you're shooting at because you're a medic and there happens to be a dead ally 3 miles away behind the guy you're aiming at.
    Last edited by TeoH; 6th Jul 2011 at 00:40.

  6. #26
    Too Mean for Bethesda x2 Jess Alon's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Cross hair sizes seem to indicate accuracy. The wider the circle the less accurate you are. If you crouch it shrinks.

  7. #27

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I don't think reducing the spread(or making the weapon accurate in general) is a neat idea. Totally defeats the purpose of smg's being a close range weapon. Reducing the damage won't be so hot either. At best, the way to nerf an smg while keeping it as an smg(an effective cqc weapon) is to increase spread or recoil.

    As for RaKeD's idea on no spread, all recoil. Done this on my BF2 weapon tweak/mod a year ago. Not fun to have, feels like all of the weapons are Drognav and Ritchie revolvers, in full auto.

    Also, been doing some extensive test about the "range". Running back and forth with all of the smgs, ars, and handguns. Unless the developers correct me, I think it's not "amount of damage-(minus)amount of range". it's not even base accuracy. For the least, I believe it's the measure of it's range of effectiveness in relation to damage, accuracy, and recoil. At most, I think it's an insignificant(irrelevant) stat.

  8. #28

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I am discouraged by how little care was given to player ability to land headshots. I'm not sure how much can be accredited to the horrendous weapon spread or bad hitboxes. Perhaps its a little of both. I will say the weapon registration, especially in high latency, is far better than I expected from an ID Tech 4 game. Its just a shame that players can't fully capitalize on it.

    I know competitive players were quickly frustrated with the extraordinary low skill cap on aiming/shooting in Brink. The forums are confirming for me that this extends to much more of the community. I'm not sure if the expectations of player skill was low for the Brink community, or if the weapons were designed to be less punishing for console players (which is a false assumption), or if the weapons were truly made to be crappy to have development space for DLC weapons; all I do know is that the current state of weapons allow for very little improvement as a player, and improving=rewarding to myself and many gamers out there.

  9. #29
    Too Mean for Bethesda x2 Jess Alon's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I like the high fire rate low recoil huge spread on the SMGs. I've taken multiple people out from the hip by jumping from ledges and spraying the crap out of everyone I see before they know i'm there.

    The only thing that needs tweaking is the revolver and heavy weapons. Revolver needs slightly lower damage and recoil as it should not just be an oppurtunity for lights to have an SMG and effectively a handgun that works like a COGA scoped drognov. You should have to choose between light rifles and SMGs. Not be able to have both.

  10. #30
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight View Post
    Well, you don't "have" to have larger spread, but that seems the only reason why they would do this since obviously it is not optimal for PC players. Perhaps consoles can get by with tighter spread, but for most players it would probably be frustrating missing 90% of the bullets as they spray back and forth across the target.

    I will refer you to this thread showing console play:

    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=29267

    The method of shooting seems to be to stand still and sway back and forth across the target trying to stop on the enemy as best you can. This is much easier if the spread is huge as you'll get more bullets on target if your aim is slightly off.

    no offense to that guy but he doesn't represent all console players. not all shoot like that, well at least the people i play with and i sure as hell dont. unless im spamming walljumps in claustrophobic spaces.
    GT: Mawgaman

  11. #31
    Senior Member V1cK_dB's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by badman View Post
    Just wanted to throw a quick thank you out there for taking the time and writing up your thoughts in such detail (this also goes for all the other posters who've been debating the weapons!). We do try to read everything even though we don't always respond. I think this was already pointed out by Exedore the other day, but we are looking into a few PC-specific tweaks to address some of the issues that have been raised.
    For the love of GOD Badman...whatever skill based tweaks you make for PC PLEASE make something similar for console!! As I said in an earlier post..it IS possible to play a tighter spread/faster movement type game on console. Just go try RTCW for XBOX 1! YOU GUYS HELPED TO MAKE IT!!!! I had total control over headshots and strafeshooting in that game......9 years ago! WITH A CONTROLLER...GASP!!!

    Although Brink sold more on console the reason that the game isn't being widely PLAYED right now is for many of the same reasons that PC players aren't playing the game. It's the shooting silly! ZERO control over headshots? C'mon now! Don't start ignoring console gamers (the majority of the people who BOUGHT the game btw) and focus on the 300 PC players playing right now. What kind of sense does that make?

    Man I can't stand Halo and COD. I really think those 2 games made all devs and some gamers think that on console you have to dumb games down sooo much because ever since Halo I haven't been able to play a game like RTCW on XBOX 1!!?? That was the most skill based MP game period on console. Anyone that played that game like I did and over 600,000 people did knows what I'm talking about.

    I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Badman. Is anyone still around in SD that helped make RTCW for XBOX 1? What is your opinion on my stance that the console versions also need tighter spreads/reduced damaged so that skill can be rewarded?

    Don't let the 6 console players on this forum fool you. MOST console players stopped playing this game for the reasons I stated. The ones left are the ones who like the bad shooting that takes minimal skill. Just look at the XBOX Live rank that Brink is in right now. It's like one of the least played games on Live right now and it deserves so much more. You guys can still fix it just don't ignore it and think that console gamers are ok with the current condition of the shooting mechanics. The numbers show that they/we are not.

  12. #32

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by V1cK_dB View Post
    For the love of GOD Badman...whatever skill based tweaks you make for PC PLEASE make something similar for console!! As I said in an earlier post..it IS possible to play a tighter spread/faster movement type game on console. Just go try RTCW for XBOX 1! YOU GUYS HELPED TO MAKE IT!!!!

    Unless I'm terribly mistaken, "you" doesn't actually include Badman. Credits:

    http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/re...ritory/details

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389538/fullcredits

    In fact, I scanned the 2 lists of credits and found 5 (five) people who currently work at Splash Damage. (Paul Wedgwood, Edward Stern, Arnout van Meer, Richard Jolly, Gordon Biggans; two designers, one artist, two techies/programmers )I may be off by a few, for example Bill Brown doesn't work at SD but I think he made music to all their games since W:ET. Splash Damage "People" page now lists 68 people. The point: it would be silly to expect Splash Damage to make similar games when apparently only 0.073529411764705885 of them worked on W:ET. You could as well expect Raven Software to release Hexen 3 (or Hecatomb) ... yes, I'm this old.

    ==============
    TeoH:

    How does being hit affect weapon spread ? The crosshair seems to grown insanely. That could be another reason to keep spraying. Even a glancing hit will reduce target's accuracy. By waiting you may be actually reducing your accuracy, not improving it.
    Formerly b0rsuk, lost the old account

  13. #33

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight View Post
    Well, you don't "have" to have larger spread, but that seems the only reason why they would do this since obviously it is not optimal for PC players. Perhaps consoles can get by with tighter spread, but for most players it would probably be frustrating missing 90% of the bullets as they spray back and forth across the target.

    I will refer you to this thread showing console play:

    http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=29267

    The method of shooting seems to be to stand still and sway back and forth across the target trying to stop on the enemy as best you can. This is much easier if the spread is huge as you'll get more bullets on target if your aim is slightly off.

    I have to respectfully disagree with this. A tighter spread makes for a better gun, even on consoles. If the Kross had better damage, then it would be prefered.
    If it were true that a bigger spread made things easier, then the Tampa would be the most popular gun.

    On consoles, when I use an SMG, I spray, and just try to track the head..Enemy Territory style. My ability to track the head is not so great, but I still do better with a more accurate gun. With the Tampa, it takes much longer to kill if used just like the other SMGs. (The Tampa is not a bad gun though...The key to it is that there is no added accuracy penalty for sliding or fallling...so it is basically encouraging you to jump strafe and slide as much as you like. Plus, you can go straight into your knife swipe from the Tampa, without even pulliing out your pistol first...which is a cool trick that most people probably don't know yet.)

    When I use the Rhett or Gerund, I aim for the head and fire short bursts while strafing side to side. There is very little lotto when doing this... I know exactly how much damage I'm going to shave off with each burst, it is very consistent.
    I've done some tests, and I think that this tactic is really ideal for duels, when using an assault rifle. Spraying or aiming down sights cannot compete with an SMG...but good movement, and accurate bursts can but you on equal footing at close (but not CQC) range.

    The point is...even on consoles, accuracy makes a gun better, not weaker. If you just increase the accuracy on all the guns, as they are now, without touching damage...then it will be easier to kill people...not harder.

    Personally, I like having a very tight starting spread, but with a significant spread bloom. The reason for this is that it doesn't just reward accuracy, but rewards technique as well. A game that forces you to burst fire, in my opinion, feels better than one that lets you shoot full-auto and track.

  14. #34

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by tangoliber View Post
    I have to respectfully disagree with this. A tighter spread makes for a better gun, even on consoles. If the Kross had better damage, then it would be prefered.
    If it were true that a bigger spread made things easier, then the Tampa would be the most popular gun.

    On consoles, when I use an SMG, I spray, and just try to track the head..Enemy Territory style. My ability to track the head is not so great, but I still do better with a more accurate gun. With the Tampa, it takes much longer to kill if used just like the other SMGs. (The Tampa is not a bad gun though...The key to it is that there is no added accuracy penalty for sliding or fallling...so it is basically encouraging you to jump strafe and slide as much as you like. Plus, you can go straight into your knife swipe from the Tampa, without even pulliing out your pistol first...which is a cool trick that most people probably don't know yet.)

    When I use the Rhett or Gerund, I aim for the head and fire short bursts while strafing side to side. There is very little lotto when doing this... I know exactly how much damage I'm going to shave off with each burst, it is very consistent.
    I've done some tests, and I think that this tactic is really ideal for duels, when using an assault rifle. Spraying or aiming down sights cannot compete with an SMG...but good movement, and accurate bursts can but you on equal footing at close (but not CQC) range.

    The point is...even on consoles, accuracy makes a gun better, not weaker. If you just increase the accuracy on all the guns, as they are now, without touching damage...then it will be easier to kill people...not harder.

    Personally, I like having a very tight starting spread, but with a significant spread bloom. The reason for this is that it doesn't just reward accuracy, but rewards technique as well. A game that forces you to burst fire, in my opinion, feels better than one that lets you shoot full-auto and track.
    I have to agree. I pretty much only use the Gerund and Kross, because they are some of the most accurate weapons in the game. Everything else feels...off. The fact that ADS without IIS (improved iron sights) does not reduce look/turn speed really doesn't help things either, but that's a control issue, not a weapon balance one.
    Xbox Live Gamertag: Felis Menari
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  15. #35

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    One area where Splash Damage could do much better is documentation. Not all weapons gain a lot from using sights.

    Weapon --- gain from sights
    CARB-9: 2.5 -> 2.3 (8%)
    Tampa: 2.3 -> 2.2 (4.5%)
    Galactic 1.92 -> 1.8 (6%)
    Kross 1.8 -> 1.4 (15%)
    Mossington 4.3 -> 4.0 (7%)
    Lobster 0.1 -> 0.1 (0%)
    EZNade 2.0 -> 2.0 (0%)
    Rhett 1.8 -> 1.5 (13%)
    Chinzor 3.0 -> 2.8 (7%)
    Except for Kross perhaps, you'd gain more by moving and not being a static target. But nooo, everyone on youtube is using Carb-9, Lobster, Mossington and Tampa in sights mode. Fools. Splash Damage would probably do these people a favor by removing sights from the weapons. Some sort of indication would be golden, even two separate accuracy stats (standing and sights). On youtube, I haven't seen anyone fire while crouching. They don't seem to know it affects spread either.

    Weapon --- gain from sights
    Ritchie 1.5 -> 0.6 (40%)
    Bulpdaun 1.6 -> 0.8 (50%)
    Gerund 0.8 -> 0.2 (75%)
    Rockstedi 1.0 -> 0.4 (60%)
    Euston 1.2 -> 0.8 (44%)
    Maximus 2.0 -> 1.2 (40%)
    FRKN 1.0 -> 0.4 (60%)
    These are the weapons worth using with sights.
    Formerly b0rsuk, lost the old account

  16. #36

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Thats very good information. Honestly though, I think that even with the Gerund, you are better off burst firing from the hip while strafing (when in a duel.) Though for shooting someone in the back, crouching or aiming down sights is fine. (I usually choose to crouch.)

  17. #37

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by tangoliber View Post
    Thats very good information. Honestly though, I think that even with the Gerund, you are better off burst firing from the hip while strafing (when in a duel.)
    I agree with you, but I went for the low-hanging fruit. There's no denying the weapons in the first quote are baaad for sights. Prior to patch, FRKN had the best standing accuracy (0.7). Yet people were using it with sights all the time.
    Now it's 1.0.

    I don't know if sights affect max spread. I suspect they don't. The interface doesn't make it easy to tell how useful sights are for a particular weapon, because your usual "crosshair circle" disappears. You can't compare it directly.
    Last edited by jazevec; 6th Jul 2011 at 13:02.
    Formerly b0rsuk, lost the old account

  18. #38

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Quote Originally Posted by jazevec View Post
    All other signs (anemic turrets, explosives that rarely kill, MG nest whose main advantage is unlimited ammo, not even heavy weapons deal brutal damage, regenerating health) indicate that Brink is meant to cap player skill. It's meant to be a forgiving, nice game "for the whole family". Working as intended, wrong game for you.
    When you put it like that it seems pretty obvious hehe. It seems SD released a tactical cover-based shooter with a strong emphasis on the tactics and cover and less on the shooter...when most were expecting something more like ETQW or TF2. I think the only way the real shooter players are going to get what they want from the weapon handling is for the SDK to be released...

    I agree with the OP; more recoil, less spread, and/or quicker spread recovery as well as more starting accuracy in general would be great for the game but will be hard to balance with the way the maps work (defense heavy).

    The problem I'm having with the game is that I like to play light but the smgs are boring to use (yes, low skill cap), so in order to use a fun weapon I need to go medium/heavy and rock the Gerund, which in my opinion is quite nice at rewarding accurate bursts at mid to long range. But it sucks giving up the movement advantage which to me is a large part of the fun in Brink, and it's just dumb getting owned at closer ranges by an crazy-strafing light SMG guy who you know is just spraying without needing to aim much while you are stuck in medium-strafe speed trying to make headshots before you die. Or conversely owning that same guy without even taking half damage because you are engaging across one of the larger rooms. It's great that they enforced effective ranges on the weapon classes but I think they went overboard and the way it is now if you aren't using the right weapon for the right range, you lose, simple as that.

    Basically, the only skilled aiming to be had in the game seems to be at medium or long range where the movement skill is less important, and the only time movement skill makes a big difference is at short range where aiming takes much less skill with the peferred weapons. I would like it if aiming and movement skill had more impact at all ranges and using all body types.
    Last edited by burawura; 6th Jul 2011 at 16:44.

  19. #39

    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    Thanks for your replys, constructive criticism and ideas.

    If we work together share ideas and communicate, SD and the players, all can benefit from it.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Cep's Avatar
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    Re: Recoil & Spread - SD PLEASE have a look!

    I'm not sure if something has changed recently that the dev's have tweaked without announcing but I noticed quite heavily last night that tap shooting with the Gerund was hella accurate even at range.
    >CnN< Ceppy

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